Maureen Benkovich (01:01)
Welcome back to Sober Fit Life, everybody. You know, one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is bringing on experts with different perspectives to help you understand why it can be challenging to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol and why you might be feeling stuck. So today I want to bring you the perspective of a therapist, someone who can help us understand these same struggles through a clinical lens. My hope is that together you'll hear how coaching and therapy complement one another.
Kristina (01:17)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (01:28)
Coaching helps you move forward with practical tools and new habits, while therapy helps us better understand the emotional and psychological patterns that may be driving those behaviors. So today we have Christina Slavinsky, a licensed clinical marriage and family therapist and founder of In Our Nature Therapy. I love that name. Christina has more than 20 years of experience helping individuals, couples, and families navigate trauma, anxiety.
Kristina (01:43)
Okay. .
Maureen Benkovich (01:57)
relationship challenges and emotional patterns that keep people feeling stuck, all of which alcohol can negatively impact. So Christina, welcome so much for coming to Sober Fit Life. I'm so glad you're here. And I'd love for
Kristina (02:09)
Thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (02:10)
you to tell Sober Fit Life audience a little bit about yourself, about your practice.
Kristina (02:15)
Yes, so I am relatively new to the area, but I've loved Annapolis for about two years now. My practice as you caught was in our nature therapy, which is in essence trying to
Kristina (02:27)
tell you that so many of the things that we think are abnormal or shouldn't be happening or there's something wrong with me in many cases in the work that I do I find that it's actually in our nature to struggle
Maureen Benkovich (02:40)
Mm.
Kristina (02:41)
and grapple with these things and it's quite natural to go through struggles and not know how to cope with it. It's pretty natural to find yourself in
Kristina (02:51)
impossible situations or things that feel really hard and not know what to do. So In Our Nature is a great way that represents how I like to see the work that I do. That it's not someone that is a pathological sum of what's going on as much as they're a whole person going through something really difficult or just needing a little bit more support.
Kristina (03:18)
looking for insight and you described my practice really well. I work with individuals, couples, families and children and I just love being able to help and help people overcome their struggles. I think people have suffered enough through the difficulties that I already had and that's what brought me to be a therapist myself. So I'm pretty passionate about
Kristina (03:43)
If you've done hard things, if you've gone through tough experiences, if you work really hard, I won't want you to be suffering any more than you'd have to.
Maureen Benkovich (03:53)
Yeah, I love that. And I think your title just lends to such self-compassion. It's in our nature because we're also hard on ourselves. And we're going to talk about that when we get to shame. but I I you know, I love that. So what led you to become a therapist? You said you went through some hard things yourself. When did you when did that
Kristina (04:08)
less.
Maureen Benkovich (04:09)
click for you that, hey, I want to do this with other people?
Kristina (04:13)
Maureen, it's a little bit of a divine comedy. I am not someone you'd ever prescribe would be the therapist personality. And now it works and you see it. However, I was never drawn to the work naturally. I was in the military. I was a medical genetic researcher. This was not my field. However,
Kristina (04:37)
going through tough things within the military and experiencing trauma at a pretty young age, So therapy itself was a big, huge help and remedy and vied for my current success, stability.
Kristina (04:51)
all of those different things that were really hard to overcome and I wouldn't have been able to do it without the support, therapy and insight to get past PTSD, triggers, insomnia, things like that.
Maureen Benkovich (05:03)
Yeah. So like most of us you were drawn to this profession because you have lived experience with how therapy can make all the difference in the world. So of course, exactly why
Kristina (05:11)
Not gonna lie.
Maureen Benkovich (05:13)
I was drawn to coaching around changing a relationship with alcohol. We have to have that lived experience, I think, to have that empathy and compassion.
Kristina (05:21)
Exactly.
Maureen Benkovich (05:22)
So yeah, well, you and I chatted before we had this recording. And I just wanted to kind of get into some of the things you and I talked about around alcohol or any addictive substance or any unhealthy coping mechanism. And one of the things we talked about a little bit was self-medicating. And I just kind of wanted
Maureen Benkovich (05:42)
to see like, what do you see in your practice? I in coaching, I hear people say things like, I just need to take the edge off.
Maureen Benkovich (05:50)
I deserve this. It helps me relax. It helps me sleep. It's how I unwind. You know, and really there's this self medicating aspect underneath that. What do you what do you see and what what is your perspective as a therapist?
Kristina (06:04)
The way I see self-medicating, in so many cases, the person is brilliant. They're smart. They know what they're actually needing. And
Maureen Benkovich (06:14)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (06:14)
they're doing their best to try to approach, well, how would I get to that point where I feel relaxed, where I can feel that edge taken off? And the best way is I'd like to bring in a little bit of psychology.
Maureen Benkovich (06:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristina (06:29)
to better
Kristina (06:29)
understand that what they're doing is they know they're seeking a little bit of relief, a little bit of that suppression, and they'll go, say for alcohol, they know they're looking for a kind of relaxing feel, dampening, a lessening, like a drink not to think or drink not to feel, kind of something that dampens things down so they know what they're desiring. So I'd like to bring in a little visual.
Kristina (06:54)
to describe what might be happening and that they're actually experiencing when you know you're needing that little bit of relaxation.
Maureen Benkovich (07:04)
Yeah, I love
Maureen Benkovich (07:04)
visuals 'cause it really helps people to relate. So yeah, let's let's hear it, see it.
Kristina (07:08)
So I'm also
Kristina (07:11)
going to put a couple marks on it so it'll be easier to kind of understand.
Maureen Benkovich (07:17)
And while you're getting that ready,
Maureen Benkovich (07:19)
I just want to say so that is, you know, often what I've uncovered with myself and people is it's not the substance per se or the habit, the scrolling or, you know, the gambling
Kristina (07:29)
Thank
Maureen Benkovich (07:29)
or anything. It's not that you're seeking that, it's you're seeking the relief
Kristina (07:33)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (07:34)
from from the habit.
Kristina (07:36)
And that's what makes it brilliant, because they know they need something. They know something's off. And what I'd like to introduce is more or less what they might be experiencing. And this
Maureen Benkovich (07:47)
Mm.
Kristina (07:47)
is just a curve of what a natural course of emotion, escalation, intensity, could be anxiety, how it kind of escalates and what course it actually takes to completion. So when...
Kristina (08:01)
someone's looking for relief and say it's a really tense social environment and they're getting really nervous and their chest is pounding, they're feeling insecure. They notice this escalation pretty quickly. yes, because
Maureen Benkovich (08:14)
Yeah, you likened that to a roller coaster. I thought that was a really good visual.
Kristina (08:18)
sometimes the metaphor is like we will escalate and I like the metaphor of a roller coaster because sometimes when we feel it, it's uncomfortable, it's building.
Kristina (08:27)
But it's really hard. don't really want to get off at this point. It's probably better just to ride it on out than to say, you know what, we should stop it and we should just like let ourselves roll back. It's a whole other deal than just letting it run through. Because this is actually a natural process that our body knows what to do with.
Maureen Benkovich (08:46)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (08:48)
So what I indicated is a lot of times when we know we reach that intensity, we're looking for
Kristina (08:54)
and out and escape something to bring us back down, to present relief, to help us feel better. And that's where a lot of the times we seek something that we know can successfully suspend us or bring us back
Maureen Benkovich (09:06)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (09:07)
down.
Maureen Benkovich (09:08)
Yeah. And in the case of alcohol, it works fast. It does. Yeah.
Kristina (09:11)
yes.
Kristina (09:12)
And because it gives the impression that there are results, there is relief, you feel different,
Maureen Benkovich (09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (09:20)
you're going to be paired with an association that you have relieved it. It is solved. But unfortunately, what it's done is it's perfected the emotion and the cycle up to here without anyone.
Maureen Benkovich (09:33)
Hmm. Right before you were
Maureen Benkovich (09:35)
about to get to that point where it was going to break. Uh-huh.
Kristina (09:39)
Yes, because it inherently
Kristina (09:41)
it will peak but it will dissipate. Its natural course is just going to actually relieve itself if we clear the path and unfortunately it will just naturally complete and it will just tie itself up in a bow when it we can finally de-escalate because yes it takes a little longer for those nerves to course through our body and trust that we're going to be okay and it's a little uncomfortable.
Kristina (10:06)
but the peak and everything else, it just naturally happens. But when we never get there, we feel really unsuccessful and we panic more
Maureen Benkovich (10:16)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (10:17)
when we know we need relief because we just know the success of this part of the pattern and it's reinforced
Maureen Benkovich (10:23)
Yeah.
Kristina (10:24)
itself.
Maureen Benkovich (10:25)
So if we continually disrupt getting to the place where naturally we'd have the relief, then that becomes a new neural pathway, a habit. When I feel this discomfort of this tension, drink and I'll get short term relief. But then you have to
Kristina (10:40)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (10:41)
recreate the pattern over and over. Mm.
Kristina (10:43)
Yes, and
Kristina (10:45)
what I wanted to share is that this, for better for worse, the brain will then assess, I have solved the problem because of the instant relief, but the problem isn't inherently solved because you've just now created a transitional way of self-medicating so that the problem is, yes. So you're
Maureen Benkovich (11:04)
Yeah. It's really delay. Mm-hmm.
Kristina (11:08)
just accumulating a lot of disruptive processes.
Kristina (11:12)
but feeling somewhat successful, but the problem never goes away. And that's where the connection to the substance and pairing it with this escalation becomes a pesky problem because the feelings never actually disappear forever and entirely. And then you need the relief in the substance rather than trusting you and your body know how to get through this.
Kristina (11:38)
and it's going to be okay.
Maureen Benkovich (11:40)
So let's turn this toward alcohol. If you've been drinking for decades, and this is how you've been responding to let's say transition from when you come home from work and the uncomfortableness of the letting go of the stress and moving into the next part of your day. And this is how you've always transitioned. We have to help people to be okay with the discomfort, to not seek that relief from alcohol and feel the discomfort and then experience the
Maureen Benkovich (12:09)
the downside, you know, the relief on its own that the body will naturally get there. I I call this surfing the urge like a wave. And it's I like the roller coaster analogy though. But so that's what I see. And I would love your perspective. The most challenging part is saying you have to allow yourself to experience the discomfort and know that it will break or dissipate on its own to begin to build that new neural pathway and that new habit. How do you help people
Maureen Benkovich (12:38)
you know, get to that place where they're willing to try that, to be curious, to not cut off the uncomfortableness with the alcohol.
Kristina (12:45)
Yeah, first I want to applaud them for the effort in trying because I know that takes a lot of courage, a lot of strength, and at that point it's not going to be fun at all. Whatever I propose is going to
Maureen Benkovich (12:55)
Yeah. That's honest. Mm-hmm.
Kristina (12:58)
feel terrible and it's not going to be as much of a tasty treat as a drink. And I first have to know whatever I have to offer is not going to feel as exciting.
Kristina (13:11)
and you might hate it at first.
Maureen Benkovich (13:13)
Yeah, and there's
Maureen Benkovich (13:14)
a whole chemical aspect that we're not even diving into. But yes, it's it's true. And I think that's so important to to say, yeah, this is going to be uncomfortable at first. And you may not like it at first.
Kristina (13:24)
You might not like it, but what you do get in turn is whatever of the success, the effect that alcohol gives you, you then get to give to yourself.
Maureen Benkovich (13:36)
Hm.
Kristina (13:37)
So for the self-esteem that that cycle takes away, you get to return it to yourself. And you're not going to know how that's going to feel right off the bat, but you get to feel successful, not
Kristina (13:49)
that you with that drink after work feel successful. Yes. And
Maureen Benkovich (13:53)
Authentically you feel successful. Yeah.
Kristina (13:56)
what I tend to recommend in that space where discomfort occurs, there's tons of little psychological tricks.
Maureen Benkovich (14:05)
Yeah, let's hear some.
Maureen Benkovich (14:07)
Yeah.
Kristina (14:08)
most people that like...
Kristina (14:12)
the drink after work or the life of the party. Well, sometimes they are, they get a great sense of humor, right? What needs to happen is we're trying to break that pattern and that chain of events that is so now
Maureen Benkovich (14:25)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (14:26)
strongly paired with, okay, I'm home from work and I have a drink. So a lot of the times,
Maureen Benkovich (14:33)
Yes.
Kristina (14:33)
if it's not the simplest to disrupt that chain of events, disrupting the brain's patterns.
Kristina (14:40)
doing something with humor, being as silly
Maureen Benkovich (14:43)
I like that.
Kristina (14:43)
as like I'm taking a walk backwards around the block or I'm just
Maureen Benkovich (14:48)
That disrupts the brain's
Maureen Benkovich (14:50)
automated pattern to go for that's a I like that one.
Kristina (14:52)
I'm
Kristina (14:53)
going to listen to reggae when I get home every day. Something that will just
Maureen Benkovich (14:56)
Mm. No.
Kristina (14:59)
kind of shake the pattern up can be humorous. It can be like, I'm just going to put oven mitts on my hands. So sometimes the crazy counterintuitive psychological tricks will get us out of our typical thought patterns.
Kristina (15:16)
So that's from a structural or strategic psychology perspective. But
Maureen Benkovich (15:20)
Interesting.
Kristina (15:21)
the basics itself is saying when that happens, the most recommended thing to do when you are feeling that discomfort or thinking that you have to decouple that pattern of behavior
Maureen Benkovich (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (15:35)
of coming home, do anything to buy yourself time.
Maureen Benkovich (15:39)
Distract. Lengthen.
Kristina (15:40)
pause,
Kristina (15:41)
lengthen, give yourself five minutes on the clock because that's still challenging yourself. Find something else to do, reading a book, As you were saying, distraction, coping mechanisms, things that help kind of disrupt the pattern and buy us time. Because what that time actually does is show you, you have a little bit more power. If you waited,
Maureen Benkovich (16:03)
Yes.
Kristina (16:04)
minutes you're suddenly feeling like well that's still two minutes more than you had yesterday.
Maureen Benkovich (16:11)
It's empowering. Right.
Kristina (16:13)
Not on a day-to-day scale but when you can show yourself it doesn't have to happen. I can actually wait 30 minutes or I don't have to do it today. That helps the brain start to shift and break how solid that pattern is and the more
Kristina (16:32)
space we actually have, the more pause, the more options, we suddenly have more choice about what we plan to do in those moments that are so consciously and unconsciously reinforcing of one another.
Maureen Benkovich (16:44)
Mm, mm.
Kristina (16:47)
We then get to choose, even if it is, I'm going to listen to reggae for 10 minutes.
Maureen Benkovich (16:51)
Right. I I wanna
Maureen Benkovich (16:52)
go back to a word you said because I think it's so key. Decoupling the association. So so first that of course takes awareness to bring the awareness to the surface. You know, you're right. At three o'clock I start thinking about having a drink on the way home, even before I have a drink. Right. I start thinking about it. It's that association or decoupling. So it's it's learning how to sort of tease that apart and and say, what else could I do? What other
Maureen Benkovich (17:18)
Choice as you keep using the word, and that's so important because it is it is a choice ultimately to listen to reggae,
Kristina (17:25)
Yeah, and that's some
Maureen Benkovich (17:26)
to put oven mitts on, definitely to walk backwards around the neighborhood. I'm gonna try that one just for kicks, but y you know, I understand what you're saying. It's to to to disrupt the pattern. Yeah, that is so good.
Kristina (17:36)
Yes, and sometimes
Kristina (17:38)
the crazy and silliest things actually work. At least I know when I've tried to be like, well, that's ridiculous. And I've tried it and I'm like, well, I'm not thinking about it. So.
Maureen Benkovich (17:48)
Yeah, that's a good one.
Maureen Benkovich (17:51)
So so you you brought up another thing and I want to kind of move into the next topic. We talked about shame, because this is what I hear all the time. And it's actually encouraged by the messaging from the alcohol industry, you know, drink responsibly. And if you can't, that's your problem. Not this is an addictive drug. And if you drink it every day and if you couple it with stress or trauma or anxiety or social situations, you will create these patterns, right?
Maureen Benkovich (18:18)
the shame is, you know, I should be able to control this. Or when people start working with me, we're just like say 10 days in, they're like, What's wrong with me? Why do I still crave alcohol? And I'm like, Well, how long have you been drinking? Well, 40 years. Okay. This is gonna be a process. So how do you talk to your patients about shame? Cause it's so unproductive. It keeps us stuck and it puts it's that mean inner critic, you know, talking to us all the time.
Kristina (18:45)
Yeah, I guess first
Kristina (18:47)
shame in terms of the drinking and a
Maureen Benkovich (18:49)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (18:50)
lot of the times even the stigma of I should be able to control it or how I'm perceived if it's more than just a social experience or I'm the fun one at the party. There's a lot of stigma that's associated with feeling like it is a problem or feeling like you have a problem and I notice a lot of the shame is also
Kristina (19:14)
not just purely in I should be responsible, but in many aspects of feeling like you need it as a crutch or thinking that it's filling something that's missing in you. There's a lot of other hidden stigmas that I notice a lot of clients struggle with that don't get spoken to. And I guess what I like to say in a more general sense around shame,
Kristina (19:39)
And as with the in our nature therapy theme, shame itself is a natural human emotion. We will all experience it at the course of our life. Some more than others. It is an intense emotion,
Maureen Benkovich (19:55)
It is.
Kristina (19:55)
heavy footprint. It blows grief right out of the water.
Maureen Benkovich (19:59)
Hm. In what way? That's interesting.
Kristina (20:04)
In terms of its... I guess what sometimes its presence, its vibrational capacity, I guess the weightiness to it can sometimes even
Maureen Benkovich (20:14)
Mm-hmm. The intensity.
Kristina (20:15)
be more, but it's like a deep intensity. It's not like an elevated intensity. It's more like a solidifying intensity.
Maureen Benkovich (20:22)
Yeah, I felt that. I mean, I get what you're saying. I just want you to yeah, describe it 'cause shame is horrible feeling. Yeah.
Kristina (20:25)
Yeah, I... It's heavy. And so
Kristina (20:29)
even though it is natural, when it's accruing or happen... Like when it's not being used for its actual purpose, it's just like, we wanted to act differently in this way. And
Maureen Benkovich (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (20:41)
I didn't show up how I wanted to. And that might be affecting me and others.
Maureen Benkovich (20:46)
So the purpose
Maureen Benkovich (20:47)
is a is the purpose to hopefully learn from it and pivot and make a different choice. Yeah. But when you get
Kristina (20:52)
Yes. And-
Maureen Benkovich (20:54)
stuck in the shame cycle, then which
Kristina (20:56)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (20:56)
which which happens all the time with drinking, you know, I'm not going to do
Kristina (20:59)
Click it.
Maureen Benkovich (20:59)
that again. my gosh, why did I drink that much? Why did I say that? Why did I do that? And then the next weekend or next night even, you're doing it again and you're in that shame cycle.
Kristina (21:09)
Yes, and then it just doesn't become a feeling that you move through
Maureen Benkovich (21:14)
Mm.
Kristina (21:14)
and learn something from. It just starts to become a state, an identity, something that becomes internalized when then shame itself is no longer useful to you. Right? It just
Maureen Benkovich (21:26)
yeah. Yeah.
Kristina (21:27)
becomes this... You're just sitting in it. And that's going to be hard for any person to know what to do with because...
Kristina (21:34)
That's not what you're meant to do. None of us deserve to be sitting in all of that shame. And that's not what it's meant for. That doesn't mean anything about you. Just means when it's not moving and not used how it's intended, it can really accumulate and make us feel so much more unworthy, unlovable.
Kristina (21:57)
like the worst versions of ourselves. There's lots of ways that clients put it, but I'll keep it PG right now.
Maureen Benkovich (22:02)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (22:03)
What I see in the in the drinking shame cycle is that then the behaviors, and I did it myself, would be to isolate, hide, act like everything's fine. And that takes a lot of mental energy and I I call it mental real estate. I mean, it takes a a lot of thought and energy to hide that. And and then you end up typically drinking again because you don't want to feel the shame like we're talking about on that roller coaster.
Kristina (22:27)
Yeah.
Kristina (22:29)
And that's what I would even say is the embodiment of shame. Because
Maureen Benkovich (22:33)
Mm.
Kristina (22:34)
a lot of the times what I notice when I feel and experience clients with shame in the room, it's kind of like a teenager that zips up their hoodie and wants to disappear and just fall back into no one noticed me. That isolation piece, shame itself, survives.
Maureen Benkovich (22:52)
James Survivor, yeah. Mm mm.
Kristina (22:53)
in isolation. It doesn't
Kristina (22:55)
survive out in the open. It's hidden. Shame itself pulls us away from connection, makes us feel less worthy. It likes to feel hidden. Just because it's very overwhelming.
Kristina (23:08)
an exhausting right? it's just very vulnerable. What were you going to say?
Maureen Benkovich (23:13)
I would say I think it actually thrives in isolation. Not only
Kristina (23:16)
Yes!
Maureen Benkovich (23:16)
does it survive, but it like gets stronger. Yeah.
Kristina (23:19)
Yes, because there's
Kristina (23:21)
no place to go with shame. You can't negotiate with it. It's not like when you're by yourself, shame's like, yeah, I should reconsider that. No, it is just like opening up a bag of potato chips. You get one shameful thought, there's gonna be four more. You just, no,
Maureen Benkovich (23:37)
You can't just have one, like the potato chip saying. Yeah.
Kristina (23:42)
shame doesn't know how to correct itself. It's
Maureen Benkovich (23:46)
Hmm.
Kristina (23:46)
something that is
Kristina (23:48)
some something an emotion that tends to spiral more out of control because it looks at like, it kind of circle, circle, circumambulates, which means, yeah,
Maureen Benkovich (24:02)
Circumambulates.
Kristina (24:03)
sorry, it goes back, right? Like you were saying those thoughts that you're having, they go back and forth and back and that's an emotional experience that someone's going through. It's intense.
Kristina (24:14)
It's overwhelming. It feels like a prison in that moment. So of course you're going to isolate more because that's exhausting. You don't want anyone knowing you're going through that.
Maureen Benkovich (24:23)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (24:24)
And and it's encouraged social media, you know, everything that people put out there. We're all I won't say all of us, but many of us struggle with perfection. And again, I think what I see in my practice is it goes back to to drinking too. A lot of times people drink because they have these unrealistic, self-imposed standards and that mean critic is always talking to them. And
Maureen Benkovich (24:46)
They wanna shut that voice off, that shame voice, that critic voice. And the drinking again seems like the easiest, fastest solution.
Kristina (24:54)
Yeah. And there's...
Maureen Benkovich (24:56)
So so
Maureen Benkovich (24:56)
w what do you say to your patients who they've been coming to you, that that you the shame cycle, there's a s particular spiral they always get into. How do you help them start to break that?
Kristina (25:08)
So it's something, one, understanding what shame is and what it's about, how much it's not your friend, being able to recognize where it's lost its usefulness is a great place to start because they always think that the shame has overcome them when the shame is just one aspect of who they are, one part of their day.
Kristina (25:30)
It is the wave, you're the ocean, but in those moments we feel it's the ocean and damn it, we're the wave.
Maureen Benkovich (25:37)
Whoa, that's really
Maureen Benkovich (25:38)
good. It is the wave. We are the ocean, but we flip our thinking and we think we're drowning in it. Yeah.
Kristina (25:44)
Yes, because
Kristina (25:45)
we just are feeling out of control
Maureen Benkovich (25:48)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (25:48)
in those moments and it feels like it's overcome us, but that's just not inherently true. We woke up today. We did all kinds of, yes, and we might be experiencing shame, but it is just one aspect of our experience. It might be pesky. It might be so hard to get through the day.
Kristina (26:10)
It might be the places you don't want to go when you know you're alone.
Maureen Benkovich (26:13)
Mm.
Kristina (26:14)
And I like to share that just at the start because it plays games with us when we feel so unsuccessful at resolving it and knowing that that shame itself, it's part of our experience. Believe it or not, we can be in control of it.
Maureen Benkovich (26:31)
Yeah, I've never heard it
Kristina (26:31)
even more so.
Maureen Benkovich (26:32)
put the way you put it. And I think that's so important that it has a purpose that can be useful and beneficial if we don't let it, you know, overtake us or get into that mindset that it's the ocean and we're drowning in it. I that's so interesting you you say it that way. It's the first time I've ever heard it put that way. That's really helpful. Yeah.
Kristina (26:49)
No,
Kristina (26:49)
and just to start to shift that idea that you are still containing the shame. You it's it's a part of what you're experiencing, but you're experiencing a whole bunch of other stuff. I might be experiencing indigestion and excitement for and the shame to like we are the ones that are ultimately in control and also with therapy itself, assisting someone with a new experience.
Kristina (27:14)
with shame itself. A lot of the times it wants to be more hidden. We feel really vulnerable, embarrassed about ourselves and what's happening rather than counterintuitively helping that shame be actually seen in the light of day and allowed to dissipate and disappear. with therapy, it's my role to the client to guide them to a new experience around
Kristina (27:39)
that you can be supported and be feeling shame. You could be understood and really cared about and feel shame. You can be just like me. I'm not gonna do everything perfect today. I know I'll miss the mark somewhere and that's okay.
Maureen Benkovich (27:59)
Yeah. That's that grace
Maureen Benkovich (28:00)
and self compassion piece. But what
Kristina (28:02)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (28:03)
if I hear what you're saying, you're saying two things can be true at once. You can still be experiencing shame but also getting through your day and and putting your one foot in front of the other or choosing not to drink in in this case. and you're working
Kristina (28:14)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (28:14)
through that shame.
Kristina (28:16)
What I'm actually that psychological tool is trying to depersonalize it. Because sometimes shame can get really attached to our sense of self, our
Maureen Benkovich (28:26)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (28:27)
identity. We can really start to latch on to it. So what I'm trying to introduce to the mind is that, we're different. We're separate things. It is not me. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Maureen Benkovich (28:37)
We are not our shame, right? We are not our shame, is what you're saying. Okay.
Maureen Benkovich (28:42)
Yeah, that's good. Very good. Very helpful.
Kristina (28:45)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (28:46)
you bring up another point, and I experienced this myself. being a drinker became my identity. I mean, I wouldn't have gone around saying, yeah, I'm a drinker, right? But I didn't realize until I started considering and realizing I wanted to change, I didn't want to drink anymore.
Maureen Benkovich (29:02)
how much it be had become part of my identity because I did use it in social situations to become more animated, verbose, the the life of the party. I actually shared with you I'm more introverted. And at first you're like, I don't believe you.
Kristina (29:14)
Thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (29:16)
But but what what I mean by that is I find things like small talk and big crowds draining. And I would use alcohol to become, you know, much more animated instead of honoring and respecting
Maureen Benkovich (29:29)
person that I am that prefers to have more intimate, one-on-one, interesting conversations, that kind of thing. So it was, it was hard to let go of that at first because it really had become enmeshed, I thought, in my identity. Now of course I see that, you know, I decoupled it as you said. But that happens a lot. Can you can you speak to that? How people, when they think of any change really, but in this case, you know, changing their relationship with alcohol, how it can be it's kind of scary because it has become a
Maureen Benkovich (29:58)
Part of your identity.
Kristina (30:00)
Yes, guess what I see being most commonly helpful is realizing that that pattern, what I see a lot of clients complain about her, just seeing how much time it actually takes up and what they'd have to do to replace it.
Kristina (30:16)
who they'd have to be in that social setting. Like they would feel like they'd have to show up differently or have a different plan or do something else with their Sunday afternoon. A lot of the times they're complaining, worrying, fearful of what to do with myself. And I think a lot of the times that's where the identity, one place where it gets set in. That it's so much in the fabric of
Kristina (30:43)
how someone shows up or what they do. They forget that it's really actually not all that difficult to fill that time and space with something different. You might get to actually choose to reallocate that time and energy to something nourishing or nurturing to you or something you should,
Maureen Benkovich (31:03)
Right. Instead of depleting like alcohol. Yeah.
Kristina (31:07)
because it works, but it comes with consequences.
Maureen Benkovich (31:09)
It
Maureen Benkovich (31:09)
does. Yeah.
Kristina (31:11)
And the identity from where I see it on most a client base is, what am I going to do? How am I going to fill my time? What am I going to do instead? And they automatically feel tied in that enmeshment. And they assume that that's them part of their identity or who they are. Rather than I see the enmeshment being more strongly associated with
Kristina (31:37)
How much of an ally has it been? How reliable is it?
Maureen Benkovich (31:42)
Right. You start to realize all the jobs you've given alcohol, you know, friend, comforter, social lubricant, that kind of thing. So when you start to experiment and experience what it's like to not use alcohol in that way. Like I learned I'm a much better listener when I'm out with people and I'm not drinking. I'm like, huh, hi back. I'm really kind of being quiet and listening and asking better questions and remembering the conversation. And so that was much more fulfilling than having silly, you know, conversations and
Maureen Benkovich (32:10)
Not remembering them.
Kristina (32:12)
Yeah, more often than not, it is a mental construct
Maureen Benkovich (32:17)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (32:18)
that feels, I notice for lot of clients, like a big hurdle to get over. Because they're like,
Maureen Benkovich (32:23)
yeah.
Kristina (32:23)
well, I can't go to that restaurant or I couldn't do this or the identity piece shows up in different ways when
Maureen Benkovich (32:30)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (32:31)
I can sit on my sofa from that perspective. And I'm like, I know once they start to experience themselves,
Kristina (32:39)
and begin to enjoy that experience like you were saying, wow, I find I'm actually a really good listener, right? I enjoy this part of my personality. They naturally will feel so much more comfortable. And that idea that it's an identity once they start to experience who they are, al natural. And it's like, no, it's not, it's okay. It's not scary. It's not bad. People definitely will like you.
Kristina (33:06)
sober I know that
Maureen Benkovich (33:06)
Yeah, yeah, but you have to be willing
Maureen Benkovich (33:07)
to try it. And you might feel uncomfortable at first. I definitely did at first because I would use that first. You walk, and most people do this. You walk into a party or a networking event, you immediately go to the bar. You have something in your hand, you're getting that first, you know, 20 minutes of down regulation, you relax. So the first few times you do it without alcohol, it's going to feel different. It's going to feel uncomfortable, but you're having this whole internal monologue like, huh? I'm listening to people more.
Maureen Benkovich (33:34)
I really actually got a lot out of that networking event or something like that. And then the more you do it, the more you go, Okay, this is my identity is what I think I
Kristina (33:43)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (33:43)
hear you saying.
Kristina (33:44)
Yes. That that discomfort that makes it feel like, this is part of my identity is right. When you're trying something new, it's uncomfortable as hell. It might
Maureen Benkovich (33:53)
Yes. Yeah.
Kristina (33:54)
be chilling awkward for as long as that's been your M.O. when going to
Maureen Benkovich (34:00)
Yes.
Kristina (34:01)
a party That just might have been how it
Kristina (34:03)
you always felt successful. So just the sheer trying something new and that unsteadiness, the discomfort, change at first is really uncomfortable, but
Maureen Benkovich (34:14)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (34:14)
it doesn't mean that it's bad or that because you're uncomfortable there that, drinking must be part of my identity rather than you haven't found out and uncovered after this uncomfortable space. More often than not, clients are like, whoa.
Kristina (34:31)
I was making a big deal over that and I can do this. Like, I actually
Maureen Benkovich (34:34)
Yeah. It
Kristina (34:35)
really like that.
Maureen Benkovich (34:36)
it's the anticipation a lot of times, much more than the actual event. Yeah.
Kristina (34:41)
Yeah,
Kristina (34:41)
well, alcohol has become all those things for someone. And you're just like, well, let's just leave all of that away.
Kristina (34:48)
Like how is someone gonna feel when walking into that party? They're gonna feel naked.
Maureen Benkovich (34:51)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Kristina (34:53)
It's gonna feel really hard and it's not that it's their actual identity. It's just really hot. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (34:58)
new. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (35:00)
Yeah. I mean, that's why I help people with actual strategies know what you're going to say, know what you're going to order, know what, you know, when you're going to leave. You making these plans. And at first I've had some people say, this is silly. Why do I have to do this? Because if you've been
Kristina (35:12)
Okay.
Maureen Benkovich (35:12)
drinking and socializing since you were 14, which I was, you've never
Kristina (35:16)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (35:17)
really learned how to do this without alcohol. So pre-planning, going through those steps eventually becomes second nature. Right. But at first it's giving you those tools to
Maureen Benkovich (35:27)
To lean on in case you feel
Kristina (35:29)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (35:30)
stuck in the situation and you don't want to default to alcohol. Yeah. I love, I love hearing all the psychological aspects behind all
Kristina (35:35)
Thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (35:38)
of this. So if you hear somebody come to you and they're like, I'm drinking more than I want to, but I don't know what to do next. And it's causing, you know, problems in my r relationship, my marriage, at work, I'm not as productive. what do you encourage them? What do you want them to hear today from
Maureen Benkovich (35:53)
Coming on Silver Fit Life.
Kristina (35:58)
man, there's, I could say so much. Let's.
Maureen Benkovich (36:00)
yeah, it could be a whole nother podcast episode. And I'm asking you to sum it up in one sentence. Yeah.
Kristina (36:06)
what comes to mind first is I know that when you're looking for that change,
Kristina (36:15)
It's usually, am I going to do in the moment? Or
Maureen Benkovich (36:17)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (36:18)
what do I need the goal to be? And I notice someone or a client of mine will get lost in between the two of the end game goal or what do I need right in this moment? As opposed to there's this whole realm of, hey, what if it could be just about how do you get through today and feel okay?
Kristina (36:39)
What can we do in terms of just a habit that you can feel good about that could boost what's going on and do something good for you and your heart and mind
Maureen Benkovich (36:50)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (36:51)
while you're figuring out what to do next? And for those places that you're worried or scared of change, what to do next, you don't know where to start, that's where so many humans are all the time, all day long.
Kristina (37:04)
because change is hard. Not knowing where to start is where we all begin. And we found our way through so many different challenges, phases of life, accomplishments by starting
Maureen Benkovich (37:17)
Yeah.
Kristina (37:17)
and not knowing.
Maureen Benkovich (37:19)
Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Look back, see what you've done, see what you've accomplished in other areas of your life. Yeah, that is really good.
Kristina (37:27)
It was more like eight sentences, I'm sorry.
Maureen Benkovich (37:29)
Yeah. No, but I love it. You said do something good
Maureen Benkovich (37:31)
for your heart and your body and your mind. So obviously going to Christina for therapy or getting coaching around how to change, you know, the habit pattern that you're in. And of course I'm a big advocate of exercise and movement, because your brain gets a lot of messages from your body. So when even you start moving, even when you don't feel like it, you can change your state. So every that was a great summary of do something else more supportive for your heart, mind and body.
Maureen Benkovich (37:57)
So Christina, how do people find you if they're looking for you and what you said today resonated with them?
Kristina (38:03)
Yes, they can look me up online through psychology today. Christina with a K, Sliwinski, S-L-I-V-I-N, S-K-I. I also have a website inrnaturetherapy.com and that'll give you some of my specialties, some FAQs about
Kristina (38:21)
therapy and what you might like to poke around to know before you
Maureen Benkovich (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Kristina (38:26)
ever reach out to anyone. And those are going to be the best places to reach me.
Maureen Benkovich (38:30)
Okay.
Maureen Benkovich (38:31)
Great. I will have that in the show notes. And I just want to thank you so much for coming on in our nature therapy. I I just love that because it is in our nature, but it is also in our nature to be able to change. So I hope this this
Kristina (38:42)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (38:44)
episode resonated with you and that you picked up some things and that you feel like hop hopeful if you want to change your relationship with alcohol. So thanks again, Christina, for coming on today.
Kristina (38:53)
Thank you, Moroni.
