Maureen Benkovich (00:01.041)
Welcome back to Sober Fitlife. I am so excited today to have Josh James, founder of Ocean Beach Cafe. And I had to ask myself, what happens when a bartender decides to stop drinking, but he doesn't leave the bar behind? That's exactly what Josh James did. And after years of pouring drinks in San Francisco, Josh flipped the script and found it Ocean Beach Cafe, the city's first alcohol-free bar. He's now leading the movement to make non-alcoholic beverages cool.
and inclusive and part of everyday culture. Today, we're going to talk about the power of redefining rituals, rewriting stories and building community without booze. So Josh, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on Sober Fitlife and I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Joshua James (00:47.086)
Thank you so much for having me here. This is some of my favorite stuff to do to get to share stories and information, build community. You're doing all of that. So thank you. Thank you for having me.
Maureen Benkovich (01:00.625)
Yeah, me too. I watched your documentary. Guys, I recommend everybody watch this on YouTube, the Mindful Drinker documentary. He made it about three years ago, but it's so good. And you get to know a little bit about Josh and his quest that he decided to go on. So can you tell us a bit about your story, kind of pick it up, being a bartender, share some of that, and then what happened that you said, I'm going to take a year off of drinking.
Joshua James (01:27.682)
Yeah. So I drank a lot and then I stopped drinking and then I opened a non-alcoholic bar in San Francisco. That's it. Thanks guys for joining us. And I got into restaurants right out of high school and I was like, this is awesome. I love this cash every day. And I was like, but I think I want to be a bartender. So I got my first bartending gig in Alaska and I, but I lived in Hawaii for 20 years and, and so doing food and beverage there and
Maureen Benkovich (01:36.121)
End of story.
Joshua James (01:55.798)
And then I bartended in LA and then San Francisco in 2010. And then I was in New York and North Carolina and bartending all over the place and just loved it. And then a whole bunch of places back in Hawaii and Kauai. And, it was super fun until it wasn't. And after I remember the hangovers at 33, 34, I was like, okay, this is different. And, and then it just got worse from there.
And then at 38, so I'm 43 now and at 30, 38, I was like, I'm taking a whole year off because it's two weeks off, three weeks off. I was just going back to two day benders, three day benders. And those were really killing me. Like I'm of good spirit and, and, um, pretty jolly drunk, but, I'm not, but I, it was just your, your brain is breaking down and your body is like, it's being poisoned like heavily.
Maureen Benkovich (02:53.191)
Yeah.
Joshua James (02:55.275)
And that, catches up to you. So take a year off drinking. I highly recommend it. for some people that are thinking about it.
Maureen Benkovich (03:01.181)
Well, let me ask you this question. I want to ask you though, because a lot of people start out with like, I'm going to do 30 days or I'm going to take, you know, a break 10 days. Did you do any of those or was I'm going to take a year off the first way you decided to do this?
Joshua James (03:15.244)
I had a bunch of two weeks off, sometimes a three week off leading up to what essentially, what essentially was 2020, but it was just going back to the benders. So, having permit, like giving myself permission to have alcohol in my life. Like that really was the major issue. So take it out for the longterm. What do you got to lose? Like, let's just be real about it. Do you think it's just going to suck and like,
Maureen Benkovich (03:16.923)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (03:45.08)
going to be boring and nothing great will probably happen if I stopped drinking. Yeah, right. It's the opposite. Everybody's story is going to be different but
Maureen Benkovich (03:51.517)
Right. But you were willing to be curious. Now, when you said I'm going to take a year off, did you take off from bartending too or did you stay in bartending?
Joshua James (04:03.47)
Yeah, I wanted to get out of food and beverage for sure. I didn't, I was watching other bartenders and people waiting tables, but few of them there were in 2020. And I was like, I do not want to do that. I'm going to find another career and I'm super excited about it because when I stopped drinking, my brain was able to do more high performance things as it started to heal. And that was fascinating for me. I went to a native American rehab in San Francisco. My brothers had went there and
Maureen Benkovich (04:21.181)
Mm.
Joshua James (04:33.034)
I, it was easy for me to stop drinking in the, the, the, first couple months, but I was, I didn't want to be in North Carolina anymore. And I, was like, I'm going to go there because I'm sure I got nothing to lose and it'll be great. It'll be positive. So I went there and one of the major things that happened, I was reading one of the books that was at the place and it showed me this diagram of how a brain heals after six months after a heavy drinker stops drinking for six months and then one year and then a year and a half and two years. And I was like,
my goodness. That's how long it takes. I thought it was like, I don't know, three or four weeks and you start to heal and seeing that visual, that diagram was one of the big impacts on me where I was like, yeah, we're definitely going this year. And the years after that, and it was, just, I found out I love to be productive. That was another huge thing. I, I wanted to change the career and not be, not be bartending anymore.
Maureen Benkovich (05:03.131)
Mmm.
Maureen Benkovich (05:25.966)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (05:31.502)
And productivity was just at 11 that year. It was unbelievable.
Maureen Benkovich (05:38.535)
Well, it's kind of like the secret that stopping putting alcohol into your body is the biggest productivity hack out there.
Joshua James (05:47.096)
And it's really good for your skin too, you know?
Maureen Benkovich (05:49.031)
Good for your skin, good for your brain, good for your gut. mean, every system in the body and that's, know, as a former trainer and very into health, that's what I was fooling myself thinking, well, I can just work it out, sweat it out, you know, have a bingey weekend, not drink during the week and I'll be fine. But like you, the more I dug into what was really going on in my brain and my body, my liver, I was like, how am I doing this to myself? I'm killing myself.
Joshua James (06:13.294)
and mood, like waking up in the morning and being like, I don't want to do anything or waking up in the morning and being like, let's go. You know, like that's, that's the difference.
Maureen Benkovich (06:21.789)
Drink. Yeah, right, right. No, it's total difference. It was very much affecting my mental health. Did you find that too?
Joshua James (06:30.742)
Yeah, there was times where I could like feel it in my brain. My brain was like, I feel like it was injured. What I mean, the brain injured, it's like, that's what it felt like and seemed like in my thoughts and whatever. It was just broke. It was broken and it needed, and then I'd have to take a few weeks, a few days, a week off drinking or something. Just be like, I gotta, I gotta repair my brain right now, you know?
Maureen Benkovich (06:33.949)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (06:37.542)
Yeah, it was.
Maureen Benkovich (06:47.495)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (06:57.061)
Yeah. Well, I was sharing this with you before we started recording. I had a lot of friends who were bartenders and people in the food and restaurant industry. I liked to hang out at bars because that's where I did a lot of my drinking. yeah, and there just does seem to be a lot of people in the industry that are either sober now or are struggling with addiction to drug and alcohol. It just seems very prevalent in the industry. that, would you say because of the hours?
Joshua James (07:07.47)
It's my favorite thing to do too.
Joshua James (07:24.812)
I would say it's kind of cultural too. You do what other people in your industry do, right? It's just like, this is what we do. We're bartenders, we're servers. We go about our lives in some kind of way. And yes, that involves alcohol and later nights, maybe some drugs. it's a lifestyle with tattoos and beards and people are just, they're bartenders. then you have chefs and then you have electricians and bus drivers. So culturally that is what it is.
Maureen Benkovich (07:30.461)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (07:41.159)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (07:46.577)
Right.
Joshua James (07:53.602)
That's also what shifted so much is well, essentially drinking culture has shifted, which goes across all, just across the fabric of society. That's actually what we're in right now. Like everybody knows somebody who like stopped drinking and this isn't somebody who was like the severe alcoholic. It's just kind of like around society, doctors, lawyers, the ones that are, are, are known to be such big drinkers. They're.
Maureen Benkovich (07:59.068)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (08:10.768)
Right.
Joshua James (08:23.102)
you, I, you just hear stories all over the place. It's like half the country just cut back on drinking or tons of people just stopped drinking and everybody knows somebody. And so it's, it's just really neat thing that's in society right now.
Maureen Benkovich (08:35.577)
It is. It's becoming more acceptable when you say, I don't drink or I'm not drinking or I'm taking a break. And I love that. I do want to go back to your story for a second because you said, you know, hey, when I was a bartender, I just thought drinking was part of being a bartender. That's my identity. And I hear that a lot with people. And I struggled with that when I thought about stopping drinking, like, well, who will I be without drinking?
Joshua James (08:44.174)
Finally.
Maureen Benkovich (09:00.219)
And then you said, then you got really introspective though. And you're like, well, wait a minute, I've been fired from 14 jobs. And, you know, is this really who I want to be? So can you talk about that like you did in your documentary?
Joshua James (09:12.61)
Yeah, I think that's one of the, I'm so glad you brought that up because it's one of the things that may keep somebody or be resistant to thinking about taking out something from something, removing something from their life. That's such a big part of them, not just what they spend time on, what they think about, what they know that they're going to do in that day, which is drinking, but that it embodies their identity and taking that away is just like, what? And
Maureen Benkovich (09:27.794)
Right.
Joshua James (09:42.668)
What's, what's so neat about the whole thing is you get a more true identity of yourself without such a strong frequency in your life. mean, think about alcohol. It's such a vibe. It's such a strong, visible, you can smell it, see it. You can on a person like it's a, it's such a strong frequency and
Maureen Benkovich (10:10.101)
And don't forget, we're marketed it too, that we need it all the time to connect, to be sophisticated, to be social, to celebrate. We are constantly getting these messages. Or if you're sad, had a bad day, this is how you comfort somebody, we are inundated with those messages too.
Joshua James (10:25.14)
And then the, somebody said it recently, the Hollywoodification of it all. It's just decades and decades and decades. just grow up with that sexy and it's classy and it's the bond Martini and.
Maureen Benkovich (10:32.507)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (10:36.612)
Yeah.
Yeah, that was definitely my thing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, but then you said, wait a minute, I don't know if I want this identity. And I think that's so important because as I start to work with clients, they realize it's not like you walk around going, I'm a drinker, that's how I identify, right? But you start to realize how it's just entangled at every part of your life. And you're like, if I remove this substance, what's that particular instance going to look like? How am I going to do that? So you have to start really, you
sitting in discomfort and relearning who you are.
Joshua James (11:13.208)
Yeah, I was also just subtly getting feedback from the world, you know, just like, well, I mean, getting fired from 14 jobs is a little more direct feedback. I mean, I, I always knew like, what the root cause of everything was. I wasn't oblivious to it. It's like, why does, why do I keep getting fired? It's like, it's very clear while any, why anything not great was happening in my life was direct was directly or indirectly because of alcohol.
Maureen Benkovich (11:21.778)
That's some feedback. Yeah.
Joshua James (11:42.466)
But there was other things that were more subtle and in the background that would just be like, like maybe I'm just giving off a vibe of like, just I'm on the sauce. You know, it's not, that's not cool. And then what really broke it for me was in like really in, like, when you get really intoxicated, it's almost like something else takes over. And it was, that was kind of scary because it
Maureen Benkovich (11:42.513)
Me too.
Joshua James (12:09.674)
It wasn't me. wasn't some exaggerated form of me. Cause you get exaggerated on alcohol. Like your personality gets exaggerated. It's like a caricature, but like something else beyond that, was not cool. And that was really the month where I was like, if there's things that I do that I know not what I do and they are very much so not a part of my character, that's scary. And this is going to stop.
Maureen Benkovich (12:13.859)
Mm hmm. Right.
Maureen Benkovich (12:19.836)
I agree.
Maureen Benkovich (12:31.867)
Yeah, it is really scary to be in a blackout and be walking around, you're talking to people, you're interacting, but you are not all there and you don't remember it you can't get that back either and you hear about what you did or you look at your phone and that is not who you want it to be. I've had too many of those nights so I do understand. It is a scary feeling. But then you did something extra, you're like, well, I'm going to go on a road trip and I'm go.
Check out all these alcohol-free bars and these people who are making alcohol-free spirits. And three years ago, that was really cutting edge in your documentary. But how did that help to shape where you are now and help to reinforce and validate your choice?
Joshua James (13:12.738)
Yeah. The decision to go across the country with a cameraman is still everything that I want to do. It's like, not so much like have to do payroll every week. Not so much like there's a lot of things I have to do as a business owner. no, but what I really want to do is take a camera around, edit high quality content and show people what the hell is going on. Cause it is so much cooler. It is so much bigger than people know. And there's nobody like
Maureen Benkovich (13:15.687)
Yeah. So cool. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (13:35.601)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (13:41.546)
really just being like to find the look and feel of a full on movement as alcohol gets disrupted. This is
Maureen Benkovich (13:48.925)
Oh, I love that as alcohol gets disrupted. I really love that statement. Yeah.
Joshua James (13:52.408)
their alcohol industry is getting hit from multiple angles. It's not just people deciding to drink less, but it's like science coming out about how it causes breast cancer, like are how it's not great for your skin. It Gen Z just naturally not really feeling it. It's, it's this whole, there's a bunch of angles, but essentially
Maureen Benkovich (14:02.951)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (14:12.423)
Yeah, let's hang there for a minute because you and I both said we like to geek out a little bit on the science and it's so important to understand how it is a carcinogen. It is a known carcinogen attached to seven different types of cancers. Most of those touch your digestive tract except for breast cancer. And so knowing that alone, it's one of the most preventable forms of cancer behind cigarettes and obesity. We have this choice, but we've just taken our bodies for granted for so long.
this movement, like you said, this disruption and waking up to it and being like, well, wait a minute, what am I doing to my body and my brain and your skin? You know, I love that.
Joshua James (14:48.866)
Yeah. And it also has a lot to do with, I mean, doesn't, didn't everybody believe that a glass of wine a day was good for you? Wasn't it a doctor on 60 minutes and wasn't it studies that were done that the numbers of, of, of alcohol consumption after that 60 minutes episode in the nineties, crazy. And they were absolutely backed by the alcohol industry.
Maureen Benkovich (15:00.071)
That's right.
Maureen Benkovich (15:07.261)
And they found they were backed by the alcohol industry. Yeah, brilliant.
Joshua James (15:15.35)
And that's thing about research. You can really, you can get data and then you can be like, look at that part of the data, see. And that's, that's why this whole conversation gets really convoluted in there. Like, well, well, you know, alcohol not being good for you, but it also makes you social and like do things. And like, there's, you know, it's like, cause look at that part of the data. So it's, it gets to this really tricky conversation. So I just like to, to zoom out a little bit and be like,
Maureen Benkovich (15:25.445)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (15:41.884)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (15:42.818)
Don't we all kind of intuitively know that alcohol isn't good for you? I mean, that's just... that's just...
Maureen Benkovich (15:45.819)
Yeah. But we want that confirmation bias. So if somebody says in the news, somebody reputable like a doctor, in the blue zones, they're drinking red wine and therefore it's good for you. And they take out all the other stuff these people are doing in the blue zones and just pick out the wine. Right. So I do know, because as a former pharmaceutical sales rep, we would go into a doctor's office with a study and we would just show the part that made our drug looks good. And another...
company could come in and show a different part of the same study, right? So you can confirmation bias anything.
Joshua James (16:17.88)
Yeah. I, kind of want to throw this one in real quick. I just, I saw this, this podcast that I love dearly and the highlight reel on it was a lady saying, instead of using the mouthwash with the alcohol that's in it, you're actually better off using tequila because it's more of a pure alcohol and it doesn't have any sugar. I'm like, alcohol doesn't have sugar unless they add it to it.
Maureen Benkovich (16:21.489)
Go throw it in.
Maureen Benkovich (16:38.173)
Ha!
Maureen Benkovich (16:42.613)
my gosh.
Right. And you know this.
Joshua James (16:48.034)
So alcohol is a distillate and I can break it down real quick. If you take a bunch of grain and you heat it up, you get sugars. And then it's kind of like having a beer. Let's say you have beers, 5 % alcohol. When you take that 5 % alcohol beer and you put it into a tank and you put a fire underneath it, it's gonna turn into steam. What's turning into steam is alcohol. The 5 % alcohol in that beer is now turning into steam, just like water.
Maureen Benkovich (16:53.873)
Go ahead.
Joshua James (17:17.762)
water turns into steam, alcohol does it at a lower temperature. It turns into steam and then it gets cooled down and guess what? It turns into liquid. That liquid is alcohol. Okay. It's, it's ethanol. Yeah. So do you have gluten in that steam? Do you have sugar in that steam? It's, it's a spirit. They call it a spirit because it's a, it's a gas. then, and then so
Maureen Benkovich (17:18.598)
Right?
Maureen Benkovich (17:28.145)
or ethanol.
Maureen Benkovich (17:35.259)
Nope.
Maureen Benkovich (17:39.239)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (17:45.73)
But you have some water and, then you distill it again and then you distill it again. And it's all, it's all very much now it's really, it's a distillate. It's a spirit. So, so saying that one ethanol molecule is, has more sugar in it than the others. It's like, no, people add sugar to make liqueurs and whatnot, but the, with the alcohol and that it's going to be, it's going to be better for you is.
Maureen Benkovich (17:53.309)
pure.
Joshua James (18:16.334)
is just, it's not common knowledge about the science of how this stuff is made, but ethanol is something that gets into all of the parts of your body, goes through the blood brain barrier and is all calories.
Maureen Benkovich (18:21.789)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (18:28.999)
Blood brain barrier, yes.
Can we just explain that to people because that's really important. So a lot of medications cannot cross the blood brain barrier. It's meant to be a barrier. Your brain is its own ecosystem and it's protected. Alcohol goes right through. It doesn't stop alcohol. So that's just a really important point to explain.
Joshua James (18:50.562)
You had some, if it helps it's, it's a solvent. So solvents are things that like moves things through other things and the salt. so it gets like into your cells and like into your organs through the brain. And, and then of course has those effects. I think something people don't know as much as how much calories, like an ounce of alcohol is it's actually kind of all calories. Cause it's the amount of energy, right? And.
Maureen Benkovich (18:56.817)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (19:17.061)
Mm hmm. Right.
Joshua James (19:21.07)
So you can have a vodka soda, which is no sugar for the most part and you can still have hundreds of calories because alcohol is all calories. so when, like with non-alcoholic wine, people, everybody with non-alcoholic wine, the very, they say two things. The first thing they say is, isn't that grape juice? So
Maureen Benkovich (19:32.252)
Right.
Joshua James (19:50.754)
very, very basic level, like immediate reaction is like non-alcoholic wine. That's freaking grape juice. That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. It's like totally understandable. It's just ignorance. Nobody's really thought about or been told about non-alcoholic wine, but it's, it, it's not grape juice. It's you have to make the wine and then you de-alcoholize it, which is all of those calories. So a glass of non-alcoholic wine is actually very low in calories.
Maureen Benkovich (20:19.901)
Is that right? interesting.
Joshua James (20:21.038)
And then retains all of the positive effects that we believed red wine or wine to have, which is the red, like the antioxidants, the reservoir troll, the, the fact you're kind of drinking a, a grape that's been fermented, which is even more powerful than just a grape skin by itself. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (20:31.303)
Resveratall. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (20:41.309)
So interesting. Yeah, you know all the science of that. So actually you make a good segue here because I think the wine part of the non-alcoholic industry is starting to catch up and have some really good wines. And you've found some, you've researched it and you mentioned some that you really like. I always have clients and people ask me, what about wine? What kind of drink that doesn't taste like grape juice or vinegar?
Joshua James (21:06.484)
Yeah, it's pretty much nine times out of 10, the non-alcoholic wine is not going to be great. Maybe eight, I guess. And now it's like eight out of, eight out of 10 is like, man, it's too sweet. has something in there that tastes like grape juice, smells like grape juice. Or it's like, there's blackberry extracts or passion fruit for the Sauvignon Blanc or whatever. That was...
Maureen Benkovich (21:12.167)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (21:16.093)
It's getting better.
Maureen Benkovich (21:32.56)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (21:34.69)
This industry is brand new. They're all inventing a wheel with non-alcoholic wine. It's very difficult, but some had done it well and we always knew it was going to get better. So I've been on an active mission for the last five years to find the best non-alcoholic wines in the world. Like that is one of my main things. I'm also a beer brewer. I brewed a lot of beer in my life. So really into this stuff and geeking out on it and just finding the best stuff. That's, that's my whole thing.
Maureen Benkovich (21:39.164)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (21:47.066)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (22:00.625)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (22:05.026)
And yeah, there was, there was one that came to me a little over a year ago. It's called Zeronimo. was this couple in Austria. It, was a friend of theirs was in San Francisco, like came to my cafe to the counter and was like, I'm bringing this from Austria. was like, great. And non-alcoholic red. Like I have to taste all of them because the reds are the hardest and the, the, the, the least easy to find. And they all just, they just really piss people off.
Maureen Benkovich (22:11.271)
Serenimo.
Maureen Benkovich (22:26.972)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (22:33.799)
That's true. That's true.
Joshua James (22:33.91)
Non-alcoholic red wines are like, they are so frustrating because they're so much more difficult than white and bubblies. That's what's going on. Every single person who's bought one knows exactly what I'm talking about. And all those that, that haven't bought one yet. I'm almost like, don't. It's you, you have a, you have less than a 15 % chance of hitting it right on the first swing. So there's millions of.
Maureen Benkovich (22:46.661)
Right, I do.
Maureen Benkovich (22:52.421)
Me too.
Joshua James (23:03.426)
dollars being spent on non-alcoholic red wine that is people are like damn it
Maureen Benkovich (23:08.903)
But it is improving and you found one that is good. So Zeronimo, tell us about that one. Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua James (23:11.866)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's sitting, it's sitting right behind me. This isn't even a shameless plug. I swear I'm more, I, I more want to show this because of the amount of money that's being spent on something that isn't great. So, and I'm just, I'm naturally, I'm not like a big salesy guy. I'm passionate, but I'm like, I found something. You got to check this out. I did that for 20 years behind the bar. I would just be like, my God, you should see this rum from Haiti.
Maureen Benkovich (23:33.339)
Yeah.
Joshua James (23:41.504)
It's, it's made out of this crazy strain of, of sugarcane grass that nobody's ever heard of. Like that was my thing. I'm just like, I found one. It's expensive too. So it's, it's not, it's a, this is the small bottle. This one comes in at 38 and then the large bottle $69. So it's not, it's, it's not for everybody, but there's a bunch of people that are like,
Maureen Benkovich (23:52.552)
Smaller bottle. Mm-hmm. Okay. Ooh, yeah.
Joshua James (24:05.29)
I trust him and I'm going to give it a shot and I'm glad they do. I managed multiple wine bars. Like I'm not messing around. This is like bougie, like Northern Rome, French, like a little bit of funk. And it's, it's, it's like bougie food pairing wine. It's really cool stuff. And then, yeah, that's, that's a sparkling that they may, my God, this is there. That's easily the best red in the world. It's not even an opinion. It's.
Maureen Benkovich (24:12.444)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (24:21.085)
Yeah, I'm gonna try it, definitely.
And the other one behind you.
Maureen Benkovich (24:33.829)
Okay? Everybody, you heard it right here. Josh is saying best non-alcoholic red wine. It's important. People want to find that.
Joshua James (24:34.326)
It's a straight up fact. Yeah, it's just, yeah, this is bringing immense joy to some people's lives. They want that, that they love wine. It's not for everybody.
Maureen Benkovich (24:46.83)
Mm Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (24:51.931)
Now I have one caveat to throw out there as a coach. So when I first started working with people and if red wine was their drink of choice, I usually recommend don't try to start drinking red wine alternatives right away. A, it's going to piss you off, like you said. And B, you've got to get through that desire that you're going to find something that's just like the red wine you were drinking because really what you're looking for is the effect, right?
Joshua James (25:06.627)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (25:18.875)
But there are people who the red wine is not trigger-y for and they're just looking for something to enjoy that feels sophisticated. They can bring to a dinner party. They can enjoy while they're cooking. So these are great. These will be in the show notes. Yeah. I'm so glad you're doing this research and bringing it to us.
Joshua James (25:35.596)
Yeah, I'd say you're pretty spot on with that. It's also just everybody kind of has a different thing. There's a spectrum. It's like I drink for the effect. I drink for the taste and the ritual. It's like, I, so in that, in that spectrum, non-alcoholic wine isn't for everybody. In fact, it's not for most people. In fact, most people are like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Non-alcoholic wine. And it's just, they just don't know that there's like this whole segment of people that love it.
Maureen Benkovich (25:41.671)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (26:05.501)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (26:05.962)
and the taste and it reminds them of amazing times because they grew up with it and it's like, but they know they don't want alcohol. They know they don't want to give they don't want alcohol in their life or they don't they don't want it on a weekday but they still want their wine. They still drink. That's actually a big chunk of people.
Maureen Benkovich (26:20.381)
Yeah. Some people do. Yeah.
Joshua James (26:25.478)
And the fact that this is an option and it wasn't wasn't one that society ever really thought about a very like less than 1 % of society would would have ever thought about non-alcoholic wine like five years ago. Now there's a hundred brands that launched and it's like articles being written about it. It's like it's in the public consciousness.
Maureen Benkovich (26:43.773)
because they're seeing the rise of this sober curiosity or people not choosing to drink and it's about money, right? They want to make the money, so they're going to find a way to make good de-alkalized wine. What about let's shift to the adaptogen type spirits and drinks? I kind of lean toward that myself because it has a benefit. You know, with ashwagandha or L-theanine or lemon balm, these calming ingredients, what do you think of those?
Joshua James (27:08.886)
I'm all in on the functional side of beverages. The industry moves so fast. It really started out trying to mimic the alcohol world and honestly failing non-alcoholic whiskeys, tequilas, gins. They're all just like, and, it was what we had to work with. When I first opened, was five years ago and you know, the handful of brands that were out and I was still looking for, and only bringing in the best of them for the most part.
Maureen Benkovich (27:12.189)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (27:17.265)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (27:21.052)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (27:29.808)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (27:37.24)
But then that started to shift and it shifted into things that, actually do something for you. I got over non-alcoholic whiskey two and a half years ago. I was like, it all sucks and it's pissing bartenders off. So they're not getting these alternatives. They're not getting, they're not catering to the, not to the, to the consumer that doesn't want alcohol when they're out.
Maureen Benkovich (27:53.725)
Yes.
Joshua James (28:05.41)
because they're tasting these things and they're like, and it's a, and it's a super expensive bottle. So it's slow. It's slowing the industry down. So I'm, I'm over it, but give me, yeah. Give me something with rhodiola and shot of Ari and Ashwagandha L Theanine. Like love that stuff. These are, this is, this is herbalism that's coming full circle as I see it. And I think that's great.
Maureen Benkovich (28:23.805)
Mm-hmm. And I do too. And do you make creative drinks with those at your bar at Ocean Beach Cafe, right? That's yes. Ocean Beach Cafe.
Joshua James (28:32.524)
Yeah. Ocean beach cafe. It's a, it's the whole reason I opened it to be a non-alcoholic bar, but I was not going to call it Josh's non-alcoholic bar. You call it a cafe by the beach and you get tens of thousands of more people in there. So I could show them this there's hundreds of bottles right when you walk in. So it looks like a liquor store. And before they leave, I'm like, by the way, everything's non-alcoholic. And they're like, what? I stopped drinking a year ago. Awesome. I built this place for you. Go check it out.
Maureen Benkovich (28:39.194)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (28:45.085)
smart.
Maureen Benkovich (29:00.349)
Well, that had to have been a big financial risk. So you travel around, you make this decision, do all this research and you come back and you open a bar where you used to be a bartender, one of the places. And what was that like? mean, that's a big investment.
Joshua James (29:16.11)
It was an opportunity during COVID. So in 2020, had, I was a Josh, the non-alcoholic on YouTube. I was going to make a 50 videos, see where it took me. was about 30 videos in shooting down by the beach. And I, and I walked into this deli that was permanently closing in October of 2020. And he was like, you want to buy the place? And I was like, sure. How much? I was eight months into not drinking. And he was like $50,000. I was like, really? You mind if I sit down?
Maureen Benkovich (29:18.054)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (29:39.539)
my gosh. Wow.
Maureen Benkovich (29:45.127)
on the beach front. Wow. Yeah, this was meant to happen.
Joshua James (29:47.022)
Yeah. In California. Yeah. And then we sat down and I was like, I would build a non-alcoholic bar here, but I left that conversation. And the first thing I did, I looked at oceanbeachcafe.com and it was available. It was just one of those moments. And I was like, I was like, damn it. don't want to bartend or work in food and beverage, but I'm 38 years old.
Maureen Benkovich (30:03.876)
Wow.
Joshua James (30:16.8)
I've worked at 70 different bars and restaurants. It's kind of what I do. And the non-alch movement is coming. And I had a chef that was there and he was really good. And I was like, let's do it. I'll get the funding. And three months later in the last, last minute of the 12th, of the 12th hour, was, this, and this friend of mine swooped in.
and was like, I just got an inheritance. What do you need? I was like, I don't need much. I was like, I need, I need $20,000 because I have like five grand. I was like, I can do it with 20. And, uh, she was like, yeah, I got that. was like, really? It's on. And, uh, that's, I did it with, yeah, I did it. I got it for much less than 50 K and that's why I couldn't pass it up. And the rent was super, super cheap.
Maureen Benkovich (30:58.653)
What a leap of faith.
Maureen Benkovich (31:12.637)
Amazing. Sure.
Joshua James (31:15.758)
And I was like, I gotta do it. Oh man. It's banging. It's it. Yeah. We went the first. Yeah. I was crazy. I mean, we opened dry January of 2021 when like everybody was like, okay, what's my relationship with alcohol? 2020 was like saucy and yeah, we did like 300, 400, 500, 600. And then it was like broken million. Like it was just crazy. It's just
Maureen Benkovich (31:17.755)
And how is it doing now?
Maureen Benkovich (31:43.863)
congratulations. And you brought your whole like surfer cool vibe and making this a very cool thing. So it's inclusive, people come in, they're learning, they can socialize and have fun in these great drinks that don't ruin their day or their night. I mean, what a gift you're bringing there.
Joshua James (31:45.345)
It's just been banging.
Joshua James (32:01.422)
They're coming in out of curiosity to give them a novel drink. They're like, oh, I've just, we've had 90 articles written about us. Like we've been on the news like five times and people leave our place and they tell their siblings or their friends. They're like, you won't believe what I found. I was getting a matcha latte down by ocean beach and I just, found this place. It was all non-alcoholic. You just got mocktails everywhere. And so the referrals, the word of mouth on this. So people are coming in like,
Maureen Benkovich (32:03.889)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (32:16.219)
Yeah, I want to go.
Joshua James (32:31.018)
I've heard about this place. I want to try one of these drinks. look at all these cool beverages and there's mushrooms in the, in the beverages and the, in the, in the chai. This is so great.
Maureen Benkovich (32:42.705)
Now are you back to actually behind the bar making the drinks?
Joshua James (32:45.716)
I'm actually not there as much. got, I'm, I'm full on absentee owner status. my God. Thank you. Thank you, Mark Jansen, a general manager. my God. He just saved my life. He's so good. He just, he's so good at food and beverage is, so hard. It's so many big things and, there, yeah, there was things that I thought I'd be really good at.
Maureen Benkovich (32:52.903)
Beautiful.
Maureen Benkovich (33:05.349)
It is.
Maureen Benkovich (33:14.845)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (33:15.318)
And I, and I just wasn't as much. And they also just work in like 16 hour days and just killing yourself. But yeah, it's, I don't have to be there as much. I don't have to make lattes anymore. It's amazing.
Maureen Benkovich (33:27.845)
What are you doing with your time since you're not there? I know you're on a mission.
Joshua James (33:31.104)
I got, I kinda, I kinda do too many things. And I know the importance of only doing one thing and being obsessive about it. I really, really do. But I kind of have like three things right now. And the most important one is to let millions of people know what just happened. Like this full on movement. Think about like veganism or like
Maureen Benkovich (33:53.681)
Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
Joshua James (33:58.86)
vegetarian, you know, that was like kind of fringe and hippie. And then it was like, no, everybody's kind of bright. You know, we all know this is a thing. It's not weird.
Maureen Benkovich (34:05.543)
But the difference is when you do that, someone goes, ooh, did you have a problem with meat? Is that why? Right? You see that Jim Gaffigan skit where he's like, people ask him like, did you have a problem with mayonnaise? Is that why you don't eat it? But with alcohol, that's the question that happens with this movement. But we're shifting that, right? It's becoming...
Joshua James (34:23.982)
It's absolutely shifted. feel like, I mean, every dry January is like the mark when, you can like take stock of where society's at with awareness and understanding of this industry. And this was the year where I was like, okay, it's not as much stigmatized. Finally, it I've been there for five years doing this. And I'm just like, it's so funny to me that if somebody's like choosing to bring more wellness into their life, people are like, do you have a problem or like, how come you're not drinking like
Maureen Benkovich (34:30.034)
more and more.
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (34:50.909)
Strong. Yeah.
Joshua James (34:54.104)
That's that's a phrase of the past. And now that it's so popular and pop culture almost, it that's, that's happening less, which is great.
Maureen Benkovich (34:56.028)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (35:03.067)
It is happening less, but what would you say to people who are struggling, especially in the service industry with alcohol, drinking a lot, because it is the culture, as you said, you do what your people are doing, your tribe around you, what would you say?
Joshua James (35:16.076)
I would say that there's, there are choices and there's options and there's community out there and find activities that are fun. And, and, and, and, and one of the ones I think of is I enjoy going to bars and restaurants. So then you, turned it into a scavenger hunt about where's the coolest and best non-alcoholic cocktails at bars at restaurants or who's got these crazy selections. Cause it's, it's kind of random out there.
Maureen Benkovich (35:44.925)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (35:45.39)
And do the research and then find them. Cause anybody that has a decent selection of non-alch in their retail spot or their bar restaurant spot means that somebody actually did research, spent time on it was like, I've and tried a bunch of stuff. Cause most stuff isn't great. And they go to those places and it's like, they get many extra points that they found cool stuff and go find them and there's ways to find them.
Maureen Benkovich (36:12.977)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Joshua James (36:16.64)
And back to what the other things that keep me busy. I went off on a thing, but what keeps what keeps me busy. I think the most important thing right now is to let millions of let millions of people know what just happened. Like where we're at right now in 2025 and what's super awesome and delicious. And then what it means for how we get together and connect as, as, as social beings. And it.
Maureen Benkovich (36:43.075)
Mm-hmm. Truly connect.
Joshua James (36:46.422)
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a real, it's a really big thing. This isn't a small thing. It's one of those movements. It's a full on movement and, and, and alcohol is being disrupted and they have to pivot and adapt and they are. But what a wild shit. I think it's the biggest subject next to AI and politics is like alcohol disruption.
Maureen Benkovich (36:54.567)
Yes, it's growing.
Maureen Benkovich (37:00.061)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (37:12.795)
I agree with you. I talk about it all the time, but I love that term. I'm to use that alcohol disruption. So big.
Joshua James (37:16.288)
and
Joshua James (37:20.856)
There. So what I'm, what I'm working on it and I'm going to do it. I'm going big. I want to, I want a six episode docu series on Netflix or another major streaming service. That's like, this is what's going on. And it, this isn't going to be like sober TV. This is going to be some rad individuals doing cool shit driving, taking a camera crew and going to the absolute coolest spots bar programs.
leaders in the space, just the conversation about wellness and what, what is Gen Z drinking right now? What are they going to be drinking in two years and why, like what things give you a buzz like herbalism coming full circle, like define the look and feel for this movement and like lead it. Like, this is what it looks like guys. These are the people that are participating. They're cool as shit. And like, they're kind of like people you probably want, you might want to hang out with.
Maureen Benkovich (37:54.289)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (38:19.094)
Let's get the community together in fact, and like do super rad stuff like festivals and, just let everybody know what tastes great. So bars can have them as options. This is, this is the new cool. It's being told by millennials, but it's talking about Gen Z what they're drinking and, and this isn't what you think it is. And this, this is what it is. This is it looks, it looks and feels like. And then, and then I'll be good.
Maureen Benkovich (38:44.763)
I like this idea. So when's this documentary going to start? I want to watch it. Good.
Joshua James (38:48.368)
it's on the way. It's a, it's, it's on the way we, I have it on some desks right now. And, and I'm like, right now I'm at the point where things are serendipity. You, you attract what you need, but now I'm at the point where I'm like, no, I'm actually going to go put it on some desks. Cause this is, it's like, we're, we're in a position.
Maureen Benkovich (39:08.509)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (39:13.258)
It's it's being the cohost is my wife, Kristen Bayer of creative sobriety. She's the quintessential female voice of this modern sobriety movement. That's what she calls it. She's, she's a model and actress. She's gorgeous. She's an amazing writer and she's. Yeah. She, she, and she's just like, and so much better on TV than I am. So she's, she's going to carry the show, but I'm going to be the bartender and the guy and we're going to.
Maureen Benkovich (39:22.566)
Okay.
Maureen Benkovich (39:29.083)
And she doesn't drink, her skin's beautiful.
Maureen Benkovich (39:40.052)
great.
Joshua James (39:42.616)
We're going to show everybody what the hell is going on. So, the, the way it gets out there is if you know somebody that needs to see this, cause there's so many thousands of individuals that are. get that could get, that could get this, this pitch deck. Cause I have a five minute sizzle reel that looks amazing. And it's, we, traveled to three locations. So we have a bunch of footage of three locations, six person crew. We've got a really high quality thing to pitch.
Maureen Benkovich (39:45.147)
I would watch this.
Maureen Benkovich (40:04.273)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (40:08.578)
And it's going to land on the desk and that person is going to see it and be like, my God, we have to give this to the boss. He just stopped drinking a year ago. Like this is so cool. You guys are doing this and it's all about the style and the fun and the party. It's not a, this isn't a church basement folks. It's much cooler.
Maureen Benkovich (40:24.785)
No, I think this is important. I can't wait to watch this. I think this is, like you said, this is a big movement that's not going away and the industry has to pivot and they are. But having a documentary like that would certainly, you know, get it out there to the masses. So we will look for that. And how can people find you? First of all, they can go to Ocean Beach Cafe when they're in San Francisco. They might not see you there, but they can check out your space. But how can people find you if they want to learn more about you? Where do they go?
Joshua James (40:53.358)
Yeah. If anybody's anywhere near San Francisco, ocean beach cafe is one of those gyms. It's kind of like, it should be one of those spots that kind of has lines out the door. Cause it's, it's this, just this really neat thing. it's the food is freaking delicious and the coffee. if you're anywhere near San Francisco, first of all, get to the beach. Even if you just get to the beach, that means go to ocean beach cafe, but it's Josh, the non-alcoholic on YouTube and Instagram.
And I'm going to, got a hundred videos come in of reviewing beverages, talking about the business of the non-alcoholic beverage industry. I'm super passionate about because a bunch of places are opening and then closing and it breaks my heart. And I want to help. I have a successful place. I want to share everything I've learned. yeah, Josh, the non-alcoholic and ocean beach cafe.
Maureen Benkovich (41:37.639)
That's great.
Maureen Benkovich (41:43.025)
Okay. And then I always ask people when they come on here, what do do to be sober fit? And fit means mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally. What do you do?
Joshua James (41:52.348)
to be sober fit for me is sometimes you gotta stop, take a break and pat yourself on the back a little bit because what you have or what you've accomplished is a, is, is a thing. It just never looks like what you envisioned in the past. So you never know you're in it or doing it. So sometimes take a break and just think about the things that you do have.
And that kind of reflective moment, I think is healthy and we naturally don't do it because we're always just onto the next thought action and peace. So sometimes just take two breaths and, it really helps to like reset instead of always being on. Cause I'm always on and sometimes it's gotta be like, take it easy, but I surf and I remember times I'd surf and I was still like,
Maureen Benkovich (42:25.458)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (42:38.813)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua James (42:50.072)
thinking, rattling all I have. I literally do a hundred tasks a day. I'm always like, how many things can I do today actively? And I learned recently how to like, before I go surfing, just stretch on the freaking beach and go paddle out there and don't think of any of it. doesn't matter. Just be in the ocean and
Maureen Benkovich (43:12.693)
that sounds amazing. I want to go. So you're really saying you practice gratitude, pausing, and then being really present in surfing, being out in the beautiful water and surfing. I would love to do that.
Joshua James (43:23.32)
little, little micro meditations, even those help.
Maureen Benkovich (43:27.035)
Yeah, you can hear it in your voice. You've got a nice calm way about you. Even though have a million things going on. I really loved that you came on to Sober Fit Life and you shared your knowledge and your wisdom and your chemistry knowledge and you're going to bring to us all the information about the industry, making it cool, inclusive and fun. So thank you so much, Josh, for coming on to Sober Fit Life.
Joshua James (43:50.254)
Thanks for having me on here. Talk about all this super cool stuff. I just, I love getting to do this to let the world know that is the mission, you know? And so thanks for helping fulfill the mission and being a part of it. Thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (44:02.917)
Yeah, absolutely. We'll both keep doing it.
Maureen Benkovich (44:09.64)
up.
