Maureen Benkovich (00:00.885)
Welcome back to Sober Fit Life. Today we are exploring a topic that can at times be controversial and surrounded with some stigma and fear, but hopefully we're going to clear some of that up today. We're going to talk about ketamine therapy and it's got gotten a lot of negative press, especially in the recent past with Matthew Perry's tragic ending. But we're going to take a look at that. And today I have Gwen Dudley. God hold on minute. I'm going to mark that.
Let's go again. Okay, today I have Gwen Dudley with me from the Mood Wellness Center and she is their community outreach specialist. Gwen works to connect local providers and clients with access to treatments like ketamine, spravato, and TMS. And we'll get into that a little bit later. But today we're gonna take a fresh look at ketamine therapy with the lens of curiosity and not judgment and learning about this treatment that has so much healing potential for so many.
So Gwen, thank you so much for coming on to SoberFitLife and sharing your expertise as well as your story.
Gwen (01:08.664)
Thank you so much for having me.
Maureen Benkovich (01:10.347)
Yeah, I'm glad to have you here. Gwen and I met at a holistic community event where many people were sharing their coaching, their expertise, there were doctors there, and she started talking about the mood center. And it really caught my attention because I have been a person that has struggled with depression all of my life. And as I've shared on this podcast, much of the reason why I drank, self-medicating, trying not to feel grief and a lot of those other feelings.
And happily, I can tell you, as you all know, that I haven't drank in over three and a half years, but I'm still on this mission, thank you, to improve my mental health. And when I met Gwen, I thought, well, I have to go check this out. So I went to the Mood Center, had a tour, went back and talked to my husband, my therapist, who was wholeheartedly behind it. And I also checked in with God and my faith because that's really important to me that I had the right intention about
Gwen (02:03.182)
Hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (02:07.031)
of seeking treatment at the Mood Center. So having done all that and feeling motivated to move forward, I got evaluated by their psychiatric nurse. And she said, absolutely, my depression and my story really fit their treatment and they thought they could help me. So I was really glad that I did that and did my research and I recommend everybody to do that. And I hope this podcast will help with that today because...
After I went through the recommended six treatments, I can tell you I had a real shift in some depression that depressive thought loops that just had not been able to move. And under the care and treatment I got at the Wellness Center, I really had that shift and this persistent depression has lifted after years and years and years of trying so many other treatments and therapies. that's a bit about my story. I'd love to have Gwen tell her story and talk about her work at the Mood Center.
So let's hear a little bit about your story, Gwen. How did you hear about ketamine and start working there first?
Gwen (03:14.198)
Yeah, Maureen, I think you touched on a really important part of this, which is curiosity. And that's what got me on this path toward the mood center was, you know, working in another field. I worked in the substance abuse treatment field, and I saw so many of our clients that were coming in with deep rooted trauma and mental health and anxiety and removing the substances, feeling better, and then leaving treatment.
and not addressing the mental health and then using substances again to cope and just this revolving door, I got frustrated seeing it and thinking to myself, there have to be faster ways to work through mental health. There have to be a different way of looking at mental health. And I learned about ketamine treatments.
Maureen Benkovich (03:48.951)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (04:07.354)
And I knew the owners of the Mood Center in Annapolis and went and talked with them. I was just blown away by what they were doing and then decided that, you know, if I was going to take this job, I also needed to try it. I felt like that was really important, but also because I have struggled with depression for many years myself and being in therapy and
having tried medications, I wanted to see what it was really gonna be like too. And at that time, it was around the birthday of my partner who passed away in 2021. And he was also somebody in recovery like me and passed away from an overdose. It was very sudden. We have a two-year-old son and thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (05:00.311)
I'm so sorry. Yeah.
Gwen (05:03.31)
It was definitely the worst thing that I've ever been through in my life. And I dove into therapy and I had a lot of self-awareness around my grief, but my treatment brought a very deep level of acceptance that I hadn't had before. And I felt very stuck in, is this going to get better? Am I going to be at a finish line with my grief? And during the treatment,
Maureen Benkovich (05:05.975)
Mm.
Gwen (05:30.542)
I almost felt, and we have our patients say this too, where they feel a lost loved one in the room. And you did.
Maureen Benkovich (05:37.085)
I did, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gwen (05:40.724)
Yeah, we hear it all the time. And I experienced that for myself. I felt that he was there. I felt the love that we shared. And I felt a deep sense of gratitude for that love. And the sadness was kind of outside of the equation. The gratitude was the overwhelming feeling.
Maureen Benkovich (05:58.55)
Yes. Yeah.
Gwen (06:00.93)
and I saw my grief as like a part of my body in like a positive way that this is something like a badge of honor that I get to wear for the rest of my life, you know, for having loved.
Maureen Benkovich (06:10.623)
So it really shifted your perspective from when's this going to be over? When can I stop being in grief to this is a part of me? But seeing it, viewing it differently. Wow, that's powerful.
Gwen (06:24.658)
Exactly. It was and it from that point on my grief has been different. One treatment, I was blown away and I remember at the end of that treatment thinking this is going to help so many people.
Maureen Benkovich (06:35.807)
Yeah, yeah, my grief has been different too, because I was very much self-medicating with my drinking around grief in a number of areas. And the first session I had too was just a massive release, just tears and tears streaming down my face, but in a joyful way, a release way. can't, it's so hard to explain, but it was also very spiritual for me as well.
Gwen (06:42.253)
Hmm.
Gwen (06:56.748)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (07:05.073)
And then I did exactly what you all told me to do. The next day I did not pack my schedule. I had a free morning. I walked outside. I journaled. And then I met with my therapist to reintegrate or integrate what we talked about. So all of your recommendations really make a difference. Did you also experience that? Did you do any integration therapy?
Gwen (07:30.176)
Integration is a big part of this process. And so me and then Brad, who's our chief marketing officer, we talk with all of the patients before they do their assessment and before their treatment and explain the prep leading into it. Being intentional is really important part of this process.
Maureen Benkovich (07:32.225)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (07:50.976)
And so we talk about journaling and setting an intention with a therapist prior to the treatment and breathing techniques and going into it how some of the anxiety that our patients feel can actually aid in the empowerment that they get from the treatment.
Maureen Benkovich (07:56.78)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (08:10.68)
pushing through that anxiety and really knowing that they're in the driver's seat of this experience and that overcoming those fears in their session can be the breakthrough that they need just to know that they can do this in life.
Maureen Benkovich (08:11.873)
Hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (08:27.625)
Yeah, yeah. And for me, it was a breakthrough because I had had this sort of one repetitive thought loop, stuck, broken neural pathway, and it would cause me to really spiral back into depression. Even after three and a half years of not drinking and doing a lot of work, I was just stuck is the best way I can put it. And since going through treatment, I have not had that happen again.
And I'm also much more aware and able to stop it before it spirals. And I've definitely had a shift in perspective and perception. So it's really, really incredible, beautiful therapy. But there is a lot of stigma and fear around it. So let's just address that a little bit. How do you address that in the community? You go and talk to doctors, you talk to patients, how do you address that?
Gwen (08:57.496)
amazing.
Gwen (09:18.286)
Hmm.
Gwen (09:25.038)
So the first way is that I talk with everyone about the science behind it. This isn't just some abstract thought, you know, that this works. There has been extensive clinical research done and then also give them patient testimonial and just explain that we're really looking at mental health differently in this regard. So.
Maureen Benkovich (09:30.775)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (09:48.962)
we're working to rewire new neural pathways and that neuroplasticity is very different from traditional medications. So we're working more at getting to the root of the mental health rather than symptom management like with traditional medications.
Maureen Benkovich (10:04.075)
Right.
Let me interrupt you there because that's such an important term, neuroplasticity. And I talk about it a lot with my clients too, because we can rewire our brains in many cases, but sometimes we need more help, like with something like ketamine to do that. Can you talk about neuroplasticity and what that is? How do you explain that to everybody?
Gwen (10:28.566)
Yeah, and I think what we see with our patients a lot is they talk about feeling stuck, feeling like there are blocks. So maybe there is a lot of self-awareness. A lot of patients coming to us have been in therapy or tried medications and understand some things about their life, their situation, but can't seem to break through.
Maureen Benkovich (10:34.113)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (10:50.261)
Right.
Gwen (10:51.284)
And so ketamine works in four primary ways. The first is that it blocks the NMDA receptor in the brain during treatment and about one to three days afterward. And this allows for something called glutamate to surge during and post-infusion. And glutamate works with neuroplasticity and rebuilding those new neural pathways and helping people to have motivation that they didn't have before.
Maureen Benkovich (11:13.271)
Mm.
Maureen Benkovich (11:18.837)
Right.
Gwen (11:19.906)
And there's this analogy that is so great in explaining neuroplasticity when it comes to ketamine. And this doctor who works with ketamine says, imagine you've been skiing down a ski slope for 26 years and you can't help but build ruts in the snow and you can't help but go down the same ruts over and over again. Ketamine is like a fresh blanket of snow that comes in and fills in those ruts. And you still have the ability to build those same patterns, but your brain
is primed for change, so you have a new opportunity.
Maureen Benkovich (11:53.794)
I love that how you're, first of all, I'm a skier, so I can totally see that. But I love how you explained it to the fresh blanket of snow is a new opportunity to carve new paths or new neural pathways. That is such a great description. Yeah.
Gwen (11:57.098)
Yeah
Gwen (12:06.58)
Exactly. Yeah.
And the second way that ketamine works in the brain is that something called BDNF surges during and post-infusion brain derived nootropic factor. And this works with neuroplasticity, but high enough levels. It also has the ability to heal neurons and cells in the brain that have been damaged due to trauma and depression and anxiety and chronic stress. So you have this synergy of the neuroplasticity benefits, but you're also healing the brain.
Maureen Benkovich (12:39.729)
yeah. That's so important to talk about this area. I know there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score, right? And we underestimate how much trauma, PTSD, depression, those things, they will affect us and our brain and neural pathways if we don't heal them. And sometimes, again, they need additional help in healing. So that makes so much sense. That's synergy.
Gwen (12:48.952)
Yes, great book.
Gwen (13:07.918)
Exactly. And that's where a lot of people feel like they're stuck.
Maureen Benkovich (13:13.463)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gwen (13:15.37)
And the third way that it works is it shuts down the default mode network in the brain. And this is only during treatment. But this is where they hypothesize the ego lies. Something natural that can shut it down without medication is a solid meditation or being in yoga, ketamine shuts it down immediately. And so this is where a lot of those negative thought patterns and self talk is. And so
Maureen Benkovich (13:43.916)
Yes.
Gwen (13:45.27)
people are able to have a different perspective shift in that period of time, because they're able to just step back and look at their life from a different angle. So patients actually say a lot of times it's like I was on the outside of my life looking in and not feeling this like emotional connection to some of the traumas and able to see it in a different way that allows for forward movement.
Maureen Benkovich (14:00.449)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (14:11.133)
Mm-hmm. That's another great descriptor, like the big picture view kind of really zooms out and that's that perspective shift right there.
Gwen (14:21.854)
Exactly. And also people talk a lot about connectedness. They'll say, everything's connected, and they're able to connect the dots of their life. Well, if this bad thing happened, you know, didn't happen, I wouldn't have this, you know, they start to see where things in their life that maybe they view as negative and painful actually led to an outcome that they really love in their life.
Maureen Benkovich (14:29.183)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (14:46.571)
Yes, yes, that was part of my experience as well. And for me, there was also a large spiritual aspect. I know, you know, I've talked about our faith before and I really got this sense and trust that God was like, I'm in control. Like, I've got this and you're, you know, trust me. And I really felt that peace and calm and trust. And I think so much of my negative thought loops and spirals were about trying to control
Gwen (14:52.812)
Yes.
Gwen (15:08.174)
Hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (15:16.213)
or not feel and instead of accepting like you said, and this is a part of me and this is maybe who I am. And sure, people can say that to you, but something about the healing process in the brain is so much different.
Gwen (15:30.078)
Exactly. Yeah. And then the last way that ketamine works is it's a powerful anti-inflammatory. So it reduces inflammation through the entire body, including the brain. And they've been able to link depression to inflammation in the brain, but it's also why it works so well for chronic pain. we see patients, pain management patients often
Maureen Benkovich (15:32.448)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (15:45.129)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (15:53.762)
who typically have mood disorders as well. So they might come in for the pain exactly the body keeps the score.
Maureen Benkovich (15:56.438)
Yeah, they're intertwined.
Maureen Benkovich (16:01.471)
Yeah, that is so interesting. And so when you go to talk to doctors offices, you mentioned ketamine spravato. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about that and then TMS.
Gwen (16:14.67)
So ketamine infusions are a little bit different than Spravato. Spravato is an intranasal spray. And so the protocols are a little bit different, it's Spravato's FDA approved. So there's insurance coverage for it. And it's specifically for treatment resistant depression, which means that they have to have two failed attempts at two different antidepressants. And then they would be approved for that.
Ketamine is a little bit different because the full ketamine molecule, you have the R and the S and with Spirvato, you split the S and you just have the S molecule. So it can just take a little bit longer to work. They're both still very effective. We see about 70 % efficacy with our patients, but
One is a little bit more accessible, you know, just with the insurance coverage. And then TMS will have soon.
Maureen Benkovich (17:09.237)
Right. And I'm sorry, spravato. So do they come still into the clinic to administer the spravato? There's still supervision type thing, right?
Gwen (17:19.054)
They do. Yes, there is medical supervision for everything we do. We have amazing staff. We have a family nurse practitioner RN, you know, their vitals are being checked throughout the process.
Maureen Benkovich (17:26.239)
You do.
Maureen Benkovich (17:34.421)
Yeah, and yeah, that's what I just wanted to make sure. So it's not like you're doing this nasal treatment at home. Everything is supervised. But that's good to know that that's an insurance coverage one. And then the TMS, what is that?
Gwen (17:41.898)
Absolutely.
Gwen (17:47.596)
Yeah, so TMS is a little bit different.
don't have it just yet, but we are about to have the TMS chair and that's transcranial magnetic stimulation and they wear this cap and they do a brain mapping and so they're stimulating specific parts in the brain. So it's a great non-medication option. Some people are very apprehensive about any sort of medication even though ketamine works differently than traditional medications. Some people have just kind of trauma around going through that process and would rather have
Maureen Benkovich (18:12.971)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (18:18.967)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (18:21.584)
another option and that is for treatment resistant depression and also covered by insurance if they meet the criteria.
Maureen Benkovich (18:29.663)
and you say it's coming, what does that mean?
Gwen (18:33.334)
We have our chair coming, so our TMS chair is in route. It's going to be at the Mood Center soon.
Maureen Benkovich (18:35.646)
Okay.
Maureen Benkovich (18:40.231)
Okay, okay, got it. And let's, I, what I've discovered, what I feel is that ketamine is a great tool in the addiction recovery toolbox. Personally, I wouldn't have gone to it as a first line of defense. As you said, I've done a lot of work, a lot of therapy, stopped drinking. But do you see people who it is their first line of defense? How do you feel about that?
Gwen (19:09.014)
With addiction specifically, think that regardless of the path that people take, whether it is a 12 step program or if they're seeing an amazing coach like you, you know, building community with other sober, like minded people. Really what we're looking at in that process is building healthy habits.
Maureen Benkovich (19:25.164)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (19:34.017)
Right.
Gwen (19:34.958)
and cementing those, which is really neuroplasticity. And so...
Maureen Benkovich (19:38.879)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (19:41.33)
some people feel stuck in that process where they're trying to make positive steps in their recovery journey, but because of the damage to their brain from the traumas they've been through, or the depression that they have, they're just not getting there. And this that's where I feel very passionate about how ketamine can be beneficial for people in recovery. I'm also a person in recovery and have three years of sobriety and
Maureen Benkovich (19:52.993)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (20:11.319)
Okay.
Gwen (20:11.55)
It, yeah, it's been really helpful for me and our patients who are in recovery that I've seen success with. It's amazing.
Maureen Benkovich (20:20.853)
Yeah, so sometimes it's the jumpstart people need to continue to build those new neural pathways and healthy habits and find community is what you're saying.
Gwen (20:30.654)
Exactly. It's that springboard for change and the stigma around it for that community in particular, I understand because we all should be thoughtful and intentional about what we're doing in this area. But I think it's just about looking at it differently and understanding that this is a place where people really care and it's medically monitored. It's at a microdose level. So there's no potential for abuse.
Nobody is coming to the mood center to escape, which is really what we're doing with substances is to try to numb feelings. They're coming to us to heal. I mean, our patients are committed, you know, who are coming. They've usually done a lot of work and so it's
Maureen Benkovich (21:05.545)
Yes.
Gwen (21:17.622)
I think it's just the shift of how we look at it and being open minded. That's why I love what you said at the beginning about curiosity because there's just so many people that it is helping and will continue to help if there can just be more open mindedness. That's my job is just to get people to understand. I think we don't know what we don't understand. thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (21:26.103)
you
Maureen Benkovich (21:34.912)
Yeah, yeah. And you're good at it too. Yeah, you're good at it. And that's such an important distinction. People are drinking or taking drugs or, you know, all kinds of other addictions to escape. And whereas they're coming to the mood center or ketamine therapy to get better, to heal. So I love that distinction. But let's talk about the...
Gwen (21:49.998)
Mm.
Maureen Benkovich (22:01.415)
the elephant in the room, Matthew Perry, it's the thing that some people, that's all they know about ketamine. So they automatically assume it's a bad thing. Can you talk about that controversy and how you approach that with people? I know it comes up.
Gwen (22:16.98)
it comes up and I started at the Moods Center and two weeks after I started was when Matthew Perry passed away. And I was just like, no, going into meetings because I knew it was going to keep coming up. But I also was just so, I mean, I loved Matthew Perry because of his recovery journey and his book and...
Maureen Benkovich (22:37.291)
Yeah.
Gwen (22:41.486)
There are a lot of people, you know, he had done a lot of work with sober houses. And so he was actually going to a ketamine clinic and doing it medically for his mental health and wrote about it in his book. But what happened really because of his star power and was that he was doing it outside of the clinic and taking it at really high doses. And the sensationalized headlines were died by the acute effects of ketamine.
Maureen Benkovich (22:54.091)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (23:03.959)
Hmm.
Gwen (23:11.042)
when in reality it was that he was taking too much and drowned in his hot tub. the levels that he was doing it at were actually what they would use typically for anesthesia. So...
Maureen Benkovich (23:15.414)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (23:24.981)
Yeah, that's important for people to hear and to understand what happened. And it is so tragic, but it is nothing. It's a world apart from ketamine therapy at the mood center. I think it's an important distinction. Yeah, so I love to ask people when they come on here, what do you do to be sober fit? Because I know you live a sober lifestyle and you take care of yourself and you're out there talking to people about health and wellness. But what do you do personally?
Gwen (23:36.619)
Exactly.
Gwen (23:54.614)
Mmm, I love that. I think emotional sobriety is just as important as physical sobriety.
Maureen Benkovich (24:01.716)
I love that.
Gwen (24:03.034)
And so what can I do to be emotionally sober? Connecting with other people in the community. know, lot of addiction is isolation. And so finding people that I can be vulnerable with and surrounding myself with people who are also on a positive trajectory and celebrating that together.
Maureen Benkovich (24:14.156)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (24:23.755)
Yes.
Gwen (24:25.413)
And exercise is a big part of it for me too. I know it is for you. Those endorphins, I mean that. There are ways that we can get what we used to get from or what we thought we were getting from substances. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (24:31.095)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (24:36.651)
We thought we were getting, yeah, they were actually depleting us. didn't realize it. But instead, fitness, yoga, yes, can get long lasting effects. So you like yoga, right? Isn't that your thing?
Gwen (24:45.269)
Exactly.
I love yoga. And it, you know, it's one of the it's actually one of the best exercises you can do for trauma that he actually talks about that in that body keeps score book.
Maureen Benkovich (24:51.22)
and
Maureen Benkovich (25:00.769)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (25:01.71)
So just finding that mindfulness and getting connected to your body because that's another thing trauma and depression can just keep everything so cerebral and being in the present moment anything to really get centered is helpful for me.
Maureen Benkovich (25:20.789)
Yeah, me too. I actually have been doing yoga since I stopped drinking. I used to avoid it like the plague, but it's so important. It does make you stay present in your body and get in touch with the things you might not want to feel. I apply it to life so much because in certain positions, I try to contract away from it and don't want to feel it. But if I lean into it and breathe and feel it, I will adapt. And it's very much the same.
Gwen (25:25.134)
Gwen (25:45.976)
Mmm.
Maureen Benkovich (25:49.662)
in life I'm learning too. When I was drinking, I didn't want to feel the grief that I was feeling. And I said, therefore, I never moved through it. I stayed stuck in it and stayed in that place of not feeling. So I find that yoga is very helpful for those life lessons and reminding me of that and keeping me present. So I love that you do that.
Gwen (26:00.494)
Hmm.
Gwen (26:12.438)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (26:14.111)
Yeah. And so what else would you like people to know about the Mood Center? How they can reach you or if they're just interested in a tour? I guess that is one thing. Let me backtrack. wanted to share. Guys, the Mood Center is a highly professional, beautiful, clean clinical place that you can go to and you do give tours, right? I remember I went, yeah, so that you can see it for yourself. But I'll give you my impression as a patient, a client.
Gwen (26:35.574)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (26:42.519)
Each clinical room is, there's a private clinical room. There's zero gravity chair. It's very comfortable. You feel very safe. It's cozy in there. I brought my blanket and my slippers and I talked to the nurse beforehand and she took my blood pressure and you know, it's a very calming situation. I had my journal set my intention. There's even a sign in each room that says, know, just, you know, enjoy this, relax into it.
you are safe. And I think all those things are so important to know. And you could see the nurse right outside and I could always bring myself back to being in that room. And so it's just really well done and very professional and clinical and safe place to be.
Gwen (27:29.132)
Yeah, and I think what you felt too was the result of the staff there who have a personal vested interest. mean, so many of us at the Mood Center have very deep personal experiences with mental health or people we love who have struggled. And so it's not just a job to us. It's a way to make purpose out of the pain that we felt. And we want to share that.
Maureen Benkovich (27:54.326)
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I do what I do. So I understand that. Yeah. So how can people find you, Gwen, or the Mood Center if they want to reach out and you are also building another facility or you've already built it. Can you talk about that?
Gwen (27:57.012)
Yeah, exactly.
Gwen (28:10.03)
So we have our Columbia location and we just opened that and you can reach out on our website or you can look us up online and our contact information is on there. We also have an Instagram page and we can walk you through the whole process. And for anyone that has questions, just call, call and ask away and we can at least you don't know what you don't understand, right? And so
just having a deeper understanding of what this medicine is really like.
Maureen Benkovich (28:40.118)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (28:44.671)
Yeah, ask the questions, be curious, investigate, know your intention, especially I know for me and you as people who work in the sober space, I really wanted to make sure my intentions were for healing. so, you know, do your due diligence and if it's a good fit for you, it could help. It could help. It helped me. So I'm so glad Gwen, you came on here and we could have this conversation and
Gwen (28:59.437)
Mm-hmm.
Gwen (29:08.75)
Mmm.
Maureen Benkovich (29:12.321)
hopefully educate people a little bit more about another tool in the toolbox of mental health recovery, addiction recovery, and just taking good care of themselves. Yeah, thanks.
Gwen (29:21.976)
Thank you, Maureen, and thank you for all you do for this community. It really is amazing, and we're all so grateful to have you.
Maureen Benkovich (29:29.787)
thanks, Gwen, right back at you. Thank you.
