Maureen Benkovich (00:01.585)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Sober Fit Life. I am so beyond excited today for my guest. But before I officially introduce her, I would like to give you a little background. in 2018, what I needed was somebody to acknowledge my biggest fear and concern that I already knew was that I was drinking too much. But no one around me wanted to hear it. My friends would say, you're fine, you're just being too hard on yourself. My husband would say, you just need to stick to two.
And even my doctor would brush it off. You're healthy, you're athletic. And then I found Andrea Owen. I actually found her book, How to Stop Feeling Like Shit. And boy, did I want to know how to do that. So I reached out to her after reading the book. I had never heard of coaching or business coaching. At the time, that's what I thought I was going for, was business coaching. So I reached out to her and filled out her intake form.
And all the questions I answered were all around my business and how I was struggling with my business and my father had just passed away, you my grief. And that last question though, it said, is there anything else you want to tell me about? And I just put, yeah, I think I'm drinking too much. So when we met and we talked about this intake form and I went through everything, she said, well, let's talk about that last question that you think you're drinking too much, because that could be the thing.
that's keeping you stuck. And it was like I finally was seen and heard somebody acknowledged it. And I get chills right now. I'm going to get maybe little emotional because this was the beginning, you guys, of my life changing. So this is why Andrea Owen is a very special guest for me today on Sober Fit Life. So let me formally introduce her. Andrea Owen is a global speaker, certified life coach and the author of three powerful books
52 ways to live a kick-ass life, how to stop feeling like shit, make some noise. And I believe there's another one coming down the pike that we might talk about, but she's helped thousands of women ditch perfectionism, people pleasing and control so they can live bold, authentic lives. Her no BS, deeply compassionate and very funny sometimes style works as a catalyst and it certainly did in my own journey. And today we're talking
Maureen Benkovich (02:22.04)
We'll talk about specifically about alcohol and numbing and other coping behaviors and what it really means to stop feeling like shit. So Andrea, welcome to Sober Fit Life. I am so beyond grateful that you're here.
Andrea Owen (02:34.352)
my God, one of my favorite introductions of all time. just am humbled by everything that you said and just honored to have been a part of such a big transformation for you. So thank you for having me.
Maureen Benkovich (02:47.44)
Yes. I mean, back in 2018, I thought I was just going to get some help on how to run my business that I hated. Yes. I did. Well, actually, you helped me say you're in this job that you hate. Why do you want to stay there? You know?
Andrea Owen (02:53.442)
Yeah, and you did.
Andrea Owen (03:02.478)
Right. I remember specifically one question that I asked you and it has stuck with me because it is such a risk to ask. It doesn't have anything to do about drinking, but I do think it'll be helpful. Sorry to jump in, but like when I think about you, I think about this one question that I asked you because you had brought the same topic to, think, at least three sessions and we were going around in circles about it and you were pushing back and I finally said,
Maureen Benkovich (03:15.608)
That's fine.
Andrea Owen (03:31.126)
This is the third time that you've brought this. I've coached you on it. I'm getting tired of hearing about it. I'm sure you are sick and tired of thinking about it, bringing it to coaching. So how bad does it have to get in order for you to make a change to benefit you? And so you didn't fire me as a coach. Thank you. But it was a rare moment in coaching where we take a risk with our clients. Only the people that we know can handle that kind of tough love.
Maureen Benkovich (03:58.991)
Yeah, I needed that because as you know, drinking is also an addictive behavior and I wanted, I knew I had to change, but I was afraid. I was afraid of what it would look like, what my friends would say, how would I socialize, how would I deal with stuff, you know, because that's what I was using it for, an unhealthy coping mechanism. So yeah, I needed to be called out. And I think what also helped me was you were so relatable as you are, you're just down to earth and you share your story and hearing your story I think is so important.
Andrea Owen (04:00.779)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (04:08.931)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (04:28.836)
Would you go back and share a little bit about your own personal story, how you got into this, especially around the alcohol piece since this is Sober Fit Life.
Andrea Owen (04:34.243)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (04:37.878)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I'll give kind of like a broad overview of how I got there and then how I got to be a sober person. And it actually starts back in the 90s when we were all a little bit younger. And I was married to my first husband and I was also very interested in finishing my degree in exercise physiology. I knew I wanted to be somewhere in the fitness industry. And then I found life coaching. So this was around 2002.
Maureen Benkovich (04:53.988)
Ha.
Maureen Benkovich (05:01.968)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (05:07.88)
Nobody knew what it was. And I remember I was on the internet. This was like before laptops even. On our desktop, there was like in our bedroom. And I said to him, this sounds like the raddest job ever. And like that was made for me. Like, are you kidding? Because I thought about being a therapist and I'm like, I don't want to sit with people's feelings because I was not ready to sit with my own even. So I said to him,
Maureen Benkovich (05:15.172)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (05:30.394)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (05:32.962)
I think I would be really good at this, but I'm young and I think that I would need more life experience in order to be a really great coach. And then a couple of years after that, be careful what you wish for. The universe is hilarious. And he ended up we'd been married for a couple of years. He had an affair with our neighbor, got her pregnant right when we were talking about trying to conceive our first child and start a family. And so that started the trajectory of really my life completely falling apart. Up until then, I had really struggled with love addiction and codependency.
Maureen Benkovich (05:56.4)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (06:03.35)
and wasn't ready to get help from it. But when my marriage fell apart and then I entered another really bad, even worse toxic relationship, I woke up one day and said, you know what, maybe it's me. Not to let these people off the hook. Yeah. I mean, like they did some really crappy things to me, but also I'm the common denominator that didn't listen to my gut that told me like not to be in relationships with these people. So that really started my personal growth journey. So that was around 2007.
Maureen Benkovich (06:16.282)
Taking ownership.
Maureen Benkovich (06:20.773)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (06:33.486)
I started my personal growth journey. I really started to look into love addiction and codependency, which are what we call process addictions. And it's a lot of the way that we think and believe and the way we handle our emotions in an unhealthy way. And then from there, I started my life coaching business, got remarried, had a couple of kids. And then in 2011, I had that moment that you did where I was like, I think that my drinking is not healthy for me.
Maureen Benkovich (06:37.744)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (07:01.548)
And on the outside, I had a similar experience to you. Like, I would mention it to a couple of my friends and they were like, no, because like we have this, this character almost of what a quote unquote alcoholic is. And it wasn't me. I was a youngish mom. I was, had just started a business that was, like it was going to be doing well. I was married. I had a mortgage, like, you know, all of these things where I was like keeping it together was very high functioning.
But something kept tapping me on the shoulder was my intuition that said, maybe it's not healthy to pour wine into an empty diet Coke can and go ride bikes with your kids outside at three o'clock in the afternoon. You know, it's like these little things, like these little taps on the shoulder. And so what ended up happening is I am the type of person, and maybe it's because I work in personal growth, I don't know, but I couldn't sit with that knowledge for long. It was just a handful of months.
before I called a friend like you did. You told somebody that you trusted and that was me. So when it happened to me, knew I had a friend that had been in, she was also a life coach. She'd been in recovery for years at that point. And it was funny because I don't know if this was your experience when you wrote that in your intake packet, but when I told my friend Courtney, I was like, Hey, I think I have, I might have an issue with my drinking. Like I expected her to like gasp and just be like, my God. And just like judge me a little bit. It was totally no big deal.
She just was like, okay, let's talk about it. And I was like, you mean it's just a conversation? I was so afraid of what anyone would think, even people who were in recovery. I had just zoomed in on my own shame around it because the shame and stigma is still very much alive even now in 2025. And so that was kind of it. I got sober.
Maureen Benkovich (08:49.018)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (08:54.6)
I don't have a rock bottom story. My rock bottom story was years before in my codependency with these two relationships. When I quit drinking, I realized I started to heal from my codependency and those behaviors, and I just replaced it with drinking because that's right when my drinking picked up. It was very easy for me to just say, okay, this is what's happening. I am not somebody who can abstain or who can moderate. That sounds like torture to me.
Maureen Benkovich (09:09.942)
Mm-hmm. Makes sense.
Andrea Owen (09:22.754)
I need to just abstain from drinking. It's not good for me. And so that was September 2011. I've been sober ever since.
Maureen Benkovich (09:30.65)
Yeah. And then you did the same thing with me. You're like, let's just have a conversation about it. And that was so helpful instead of people denying it or brushing it off. And now, of course, coaching in this arena, I now realize that was more about them and their concerns. If I were to change my drinking, how would that affect them? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (09:45.325)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (09:49.24)
Who are you to them if you don't drink anymore? Yeah, that happens a lot in friendships. A lot of people have jobs where I've coached a fair amount of women in sales and they've told me my job, it revolves around drinking, like entertaining clients. That's what I do. I can't quit. So sometimes that's a factor. And I was someone who was previously in the fitness industry.
Maureen Benkovich (10:14.574)
Mm-hmm. We had that in common.
Andrea Owen (10:15.014)
And I would drink an entire bottle of wine and the next morning get up and go for a run with two babies in a baby jogger who liked to pull the canopy over so it made it even harder for me to push them against the wind. And I looked at that like a badge of honor. Like, look at me, I can drink an entire bottle of wine, not feel great the next morning, but still get up and like bulldoze through a run. I looked at that and used it as an excuse as to why I didn't have a problem.
Maureen Benkovich (10:28.528)
the resistance.
Maureen Benkovich (10:44.24)
Well, me too, that's what kept me stuck for so long. Being this personal trainer, teaching classes hung over, I'm like, I got it together, I can still do that. Well, youth was one thing, right? So as that starts to go away, you don't metabolize alcohol as well, but it was starting to really affect my mental health. But the big thing was, and you helped me to see this, was it was a coping mechanism for a job that I hated. My father had passed, my mother had dementia, I had a lot of grief.
Andrea Owen (10:52.031)
The
Andrea Owen (10:55.566)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (10:59.341)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (11:13.316)
that I didn't want to deal with. And I had to remove that first, for me personally, I had to remove that first coping mechanism to look at all the other ones that you talk about that I identified with so much, perfectionism, self-sabotage, which I think drinking can be that. So you helped me to see that. So was just so monumental in my life.
Andrea Owen (11:15.073)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (11:31.148)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (11:37.464)
Thank you. I'm so glad. Like, I'm honored. I want to say this though. I want to back up a little bit because what you're pointing to, and I think this would be helpful for the listeners, whether they are someone receiving the message that someone gives them, a close friend or family member that they're struggling with their drinking or some other kind of addiction or behavior that they don't like, or they're the person telling someone else, is that at the end of the day,
Maureen Benkovich (11:49.68)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (12:06.356)
All of us want, all of us really want is to be seen and heard in our experience and our emotions. That's it. That's it. I saw this from the beginning, even when I would run retreats and things like that, and I would try to pack all this stuff in and workshops and let's talk about this and let's do this activity and let's do skits and all this stuff. It's like at the end of the day, people just want to come and tell their story and know that they're not alone and have people look them in the face and say, me too, or
Maureen Benkovich (12:12.228)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (12:30.18)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (12:35.424)
I see you," or, that sounds like it sucks. I don't know what that's like, but I know what something similar feels like. That's all we really want. I think that when you can find that person, treat them right. Hold on to them. Whether you're paying them as a therapist or coach or they're one of your in real life friends, and also express gratitude towards that because that is so paramount to just human connection.
Maureen Benkovich (12:50.49)
Yes. So important.
Maureen Benkovich (13:04.036)
Yeah, I agree with all that. And then, you know, after you helped me to not be afraid to be vulnerable because I took your daring way workshop, big program and that whole concept, and I'd love for you to get into this. I didn't understand what curiosity meant. I had no idea how to show myself self-compassion. And then that vulnerability actually kills shame, that whole concept. And really those things,
Andrea Owen (13:13.55)
That's right, you did. That was a big program.
Andrea Owen (13:23.342)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (13:32.276)
again, really changed my whole outlook. But can you explain why? I know why, but I want my audience to hear from you. Why is curiosity so important? I know awareness comes first, but then why curiosity? What does it mean?
Andrea Owen (13:42.958)
Yeah. Curiosity is one of the sort of pillars in my coach training school that I went to, the Coaches Training Institute. And it was something that I never, obviously I know what curiosity is, but I never looked at it as a tool for personal growth. And now I think it's one of the most important tools for personal growth. To answer your question, I think that when people really stop to think about it,
Maureen Benkovich (13:55.002)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (14:12.588)
they would be surprised at how many assumptions that we come to every day about other people, about ourselves, about outcomes, about circumstances, everything, as well as like expectations that we have of ourselves and other people and of circumstances. So when you, give an example. Maybe this is a little bit easier. So around the conversation of drinking, if I were to,
Maureen Benkovich (14:30.073)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (14:40.27)
And as a coach, this is what we do. We come at conversations with curiosity instead of, I have all the answers that you need. That's consulting. And I can do that. I can give you advice all day long, but true coaching is really just asking questions from a place of curiosity. So I would ask you things like, well, what do you get out of drinking? Curiosity is acting like you really don't know anything about the situation.
Maureen Benkovich (15:06.64)
Mm.
Andrea Owen (15:07.374)
you are just like, you got your little flashlight and you're a detective and you're trying to figure things out. And the reason that it's important is because it allows you to try to come out the situation with no preconceived notions or bias. I don't, you know, when you told me that in your intake, like I don't immediately come to the conclusion that you should stop drinking. I just, I'm like, tell me more, say more.
Maureen Benkovich (15:23.194)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (15:31.152)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (15:34.894)
And it's my job to ask you questions that are genuinely curious so that you can hopefully dig around a little bit in not just your mind, but like in your heart and soul and your intuition so that you can find the clarity that you need. Because it's not about, as a coach, it's not, and people can coach themselves all day long too. That's why I'm digging into this. it's like, it's really not about, it's not about,
The end goal, I would hope for people that the end goal is just getting a little bit more clarity, maybe not coming to a solution or a hard and fast answer, but just clarity. Can we have that be the goal? And I think that one of the things that I've started saying a lot lately is curiosity over control. I started to use curiosity because I left my second marriage a couple of years ago and I'm in a new relationship. It's actually eight months today. And we have made a pact now that we're
Maureen Benkovich (16:22.017)
Mm, I like that.
Maureen Benkovich (16:29.616)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (16:33.026)
this age. We have a lot of experience in relationships. And one of the things that we're doing with intention is curiosity over control. Because many times, even in our love relationships, we are trying to control the other person. We're trying to control the outcome of like a, don't leave me type of thing. Or like, please don't do anything that I don't like or that will hurt me. And so if you can choose curiosity, it will always benefit you.
Maureen Benkovich (16:42.084)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (16:51.578)
Yeah, yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (16:58.896)
Yeah, and you introduced that concept to me and then I was able to start being curious with myself. And then, but the other piece is self-compassionate. I truly did not know what that meant to be to myself.
Andrea Owen (17:14.158)
Do you remember, I remember there was a little bit of a kind of like a flag that was raised. Like sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck when I'm talking to clients. And it happened when we were working together because we were talking about things that you wanted to change. And it was, I can't remember what it was related to, but I don't think it was about drinking. It was about ancillary things like working out and things like that. And you said, I just need to be more disciplined. And the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I was like,
Maureen Benkovich (17:23.088)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (17:35.49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Business.
Yes. Yes.
Andrea Owen (17:43.838)
And it's technically not my job to say things like, are you sure about that? Because then I have an agenda and I'm making an assumption, but there was something that told me that is not the solution for you. You don't need to push yourself harder. You don't need to be more productive. You don't need to check more things off the list. What you need is to actually like kind of grab yourself by the hair and look inside, like at the grief.
Maureen Benkovich (17:48.836)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (18:13.934)
Yes, it was the grief. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (18:14.324)
you haven't dealt with the pressure and the stress of like doing things that you don't want to do anyway. So that just, that stands out to me in our work together too. What do you, what do you, what was your experience of that?
Maureen Benkovich (18:25.872)
Yes, I agree because that was my answer. We'll try harder, do more perfectionism, know, really being hard on myself. And then the drinking was to not feel all the things I was feeling. I didn't want to face the things. And so, yeah, again, I think, you know, and that's what I've learned from you too, is to sometimes go with your intuition as a coach as well. I mean, I know it's not pure coaching, but sometimes, you know, that comes to you. And I was so glad that you again said that to me. So it was...
Andrea Owen (18:32.526)
achievement.
Andrea Owen (18:49.634)
it is.
Maureen Benkovich (18:55.024)
As I said, it was 2018, but it wasn't until 2021 that I actually stopped drinking, but I was on that journey. You had planted all those seeds. And that's what was so important. And I also want to flip to your book, How to Stop Feeling Like Shit. And you talk about 14 coping mechanisms, right? 14, there it is. There's the yellow cover. How to Stop Feeling Like Shit. I have the white one.
Andrea Owen (19:12.417)
Okay.
There are 14 habits, yeah, coping mechanisms. Yeah, this is the revised version.
Maureen Benkovich (19:24.644)
Yeah. And I think the ones, the main ones, I was just listening to your current program, which is like the five day, how to stop feeling like shit, fast track kind of program you're doing now. We can talk about that. But perfectionism, control, self-sabotage, numbing and yeah, overachieving. So I was like hitting all those boxes. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (19:41.645)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (19:45.55)
Yeah, blame is another big one. Isolation is one of them and that means, you know, like not reaching out for help at all. Just not diving into the emotions. Yeah, there's 14 of them. And that came from shame work, being trained in shame work.
Maureen Benkovich (19:59.761)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but I guess my big question to you about that is would you say that the numbing, if you're doing it with alcohol, that has to be something you look at first before you can really take a look at those other coping mechanisms?
Andrea Owen (20:17.678)
Yeah, so here's my answer to that. I get this question a fair amount and the question sometimes looks different. Sometimes people just say like, where do I even begin? You know, whether we're talking about the 14 habits in this book or personal growth in general, there's lots of different entry points. So I always tell people one of two places or actually one of three places, I should say. So there's your negative self-talk. Like how do you speak to yourself? Are you kind? Do you beat yourself up? Start there. The other one is around values, good foundational work.
Maureen Benkovich (20:19.651)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (20:25.966)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (20:41.103)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (20:46.252)
what's important about the way that you live your life. And then when you find out all those things, are you actually living it? And then bridge the gap. The third thing is, do you have any addictions? Because if you have any addictions, I would absolutely start there because you are going to run around in circles in your personal growth and you're not going to get very far if you keep coming back to this one, whether it's a process addiction like love addiction, codependency,
Maureen Benkovich (21:00.997)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (21:14.162)
or if it's a substance addiction like food, drugs, alcohol.
Maureen Benkovich (21:22.02)
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is when I first came to you, I just wanted you to give me like eight easy steps to how to stop feeling like shit. I did not want to go deep. I didn't want to think about it. I didn't want to become aware. I didn't want to be curious, you know. But you said that would be such a disservice if I did just give you eight steps because you have to go and be aware. Right. You could.
Andrea Owen (21:26.613)
Hahaha!
Andrea Owen (21:34.892)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (21:40.494)
Mm-hmm, and I could do it.
Yeah. And this is something I learned when I was a personal trainer. I don't know if you ever had a mentor, anyone that told you this, like, we can't want it more than our clients. Like, we can't. Yeah. And coaching is the same. I cannot meet a client in the depths if they are not willing to come with me. And there is no judgment at all for someone that's not ready. I thought about quitting drinking years before.
Maureen Benkovich (21:53.06)
Yes, I was a personal trainer too. get that.
Maureen Benkovich (22:07.29)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (22:14.17)
And even like, you know, things like someone leaving their marriage, like on average, women who leave marriages have been thinking about it for an average of six years before they go. You're going to be ready when you're ready, whether that comes to quitting drinking or leaving a relationship or leaving a whole ass career. My hope is that no one feels ashamed or judges themselves if they kind of know that the answer is quitting drinking or
Maureen Benkovich (22:26.318)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (22:37.732)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (22:41.858)
going into the deep end with their therapist or whatever and they are procrastinating and slogging along. That's okay. You'll get there when you're ready.
Maureen Benkovich (22:49.998)
Yeah, that message really resonated with me because the shame piece, I was so stuck in that. So that's why a big part of my coaching is helping people to understand how alcohol works. It's not your fault, it's chemistry. The way it changes our brain chemistry and how our brains are neuroplastic because I, being the personal trainer, I really like that physiological angle and that helped me to understand, okay, I can change this. I can make different choices.
Andrea Owen (23:05.41)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (23:16.736)
and not be in shame. that you, what you taught me about shame, just keeping me stuck has really continued now in my own coaching because I know how much, how important that is. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (23:26.795)
Yeah.
so glad you said that. And like, what a beautiful thing to tell your listeners. it's not, I want to say this too, for people who are like, my God, we're not talking about shame. It's not even necessarily that you need to go into therapy and have, you know, like all these deep somatic visualization, like go back to the birth canal and like big, big things. Or even like I take people through shame resilience program.
Maureen Benkovich (23:38.853)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (23:46.672)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (23:55.396)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (23:56.718)
learning about it. It's very intellectual, but sometimes just understanding that your excessive drinking is underpinned by shame, your need for control, the bus is actually being driven by shame. I'll just say this, and I say this in the introduction of this book. It's not that you're walking around feeling ashamed all the time. Most people don't.
Maureen Benkovich (24:00.794)
which I love.
Maureen Benkovich (24:17.242)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (24:22.294)
It's that the behaviors that you're engaging in, the poor boundaries, the people pleasing, the control, the perfectionism, self-sabotage, numbing out. We do those in an effort to avoid shame, to avoid criticism, to avoid judgment from ourselves or others, to avoid failure, to avoid the really difficult, uncomfortable feelings that come along with all of that. That's shame is at the root of it. Shame is at the root of most things. And so sometimes even just being aware of it,
Maureen Benkovich (24:33.242)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (24:52.472)
that it's there is enough to squelch it a little bit because shame hides. It thrives in secrecy. And so I'm on a mission to like, let's just talk about it. Who wants to talk about it with me?
Maureen Benkovich (24:59.076)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (25:03.054)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's just, that helps so much to be vulnerable. That was another concept that I was like, ooh, I don't want to be vulnerable. That's dangerous, you know. But then experiencing someone going, no, let's just talk about it. And okay, so you think you're drinking too much. So what would you like to do? You know, why do you think you're doing that? That kind of thing.
Andrea Owen (25:13.431)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (25:25.53)
That just made all the difference in the world. Because I had grown up, I'd been brought up in a family that was like, no, you're not vulnerable. We're Irish, we're Italian, we don't talk. No, you know. And I hear that so much.
Andrea Owen (25:35.042)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially people our age who were raised by the generation before us, a lot of us were raised by silent generation. My parents were, they had little to no tools at all. So they survived by sweeping everything under the rug, by pretending that things were okay, by not talking about the big stuff. That was their coping mechanism. And it worked for a while, you know, and some of them, impacted them more than others. So it's like, this isn't to blame and shame.
Maureen Benkovich (25:40.559)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (25:46.341)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (25:51.79)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (25:56.943)
Right.
Andrea Owen (26:05.128)
we grew up or anything like that. Everybody did the best they could. But at the end of the day, shame is the thing that anytime I ask that question that I ask at the end of the intake, if somebody puts something there, I've had people say that they're questioning their sexuality. I've had more than one client say that they're thinking about leaving their marriage, but no one knows, except maybe like their therapist. And I would say 100 % of the things that people put on that question are
Maureen Benkovich (26:08.109)
what they had.
Maureen Benkovich (26:18.352)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (26:34.823)
They're ashamed of it and that's why they haven't said anything to anybody. So everybody listening who might be thinking about what they would put on that, it's probably shame.
Maureen Benkovich (26:40.026)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (26:45.576)
But here's the thing, when you're drinking that particular or drugs coping mechanism, you get a backlash of shame from doing that as well. So the shameful thing you're trying to avoid, you drink or at least most people, if they drink too much on a regular basis, they feel a lot of shame around that as well. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (26:56.046)
Right.
Andrea Owen (27:05.269)
Yeah, it's a cycle. It's a cycle that's a 24-hour-ish cycle. So it's like we, I don't know what your drinking career looked like at the end, but for me, it was like, I would wake up in the morning and feel physically not great because of drinking so much, but more like mentally and emotionally, that's where it would hit me. I would feel terrible and think, like feel that, like a little tap on the shoulder of two things. This is too much and also,
Maureen Benkovich (27:22.554)
Yes, me too.
Andrea Owen (27:34.338)
the trajectory that this is going is not looking good. That scared me more than anything. That even gives me goosebumps to say out loud. Then I did a little bit of research and found out that women tend to have a faster trajectory to alcoholism, I'm using air quotes, than men do because of the way that we metabolize sugar. DUIs are on the rise with women. I saw that statistic and I was like, I'm going to put that away and not think about it anymore. So that's shame. So then I would vow.
Maureen Benkovich (27:37.422)
Right. Me too.
Maureen Benkovich (27:46.544)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Andrea Owen (27:59.948)
to either cut back or not drink at all that day. I'm like, I cannot drink on a Tuesday. Come on. I can do hard things. So then five o'clock would come around and I would get the itch and the anxiety would start to rise a little bit. And then I would say, I need to go to Trader Joe's just to get some garlic. And like, my gosh, there's this wine here. I'm just going to get a bottle. You have no big deal. And then I would drink and then this whole cycle would start over again. So that went on for probably years, a few years. It's miserable.
Maureen Benkovich (28:02.01)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (28:15.824)
There's some wine on sale. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (28:26.788)
Yeah, no, definitely that's very common cycle, exactly. And, you know, there's a chemical reason for that. I often talk about that, why that happens. But we're just stuck in this cycle and we think, how am I going to get out of this? And do I really want to get out of it? Because what does that look like if I stop doing this behavior? You know, how do I deal with my stress or my transition into the evening or the marriage I'm not happy in?
Andrea Owen (28:44.781)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (28:54.512)
or the job I want to leave or the fact that my dad just died. That's the other piece of it. so helping people to, which I know you do all the time, is how to replace that unhealthy coping mechanism. What are the other things you can start to learn how to do?
Andrea Owen (29:10.41)
Yeah. And here's the thing that I want to, and you've probably talked about this on your show or on the socials, is the difference between sobriety and recovery. I think they're two very different things. Anybody can just abstain from alcohol. It might not be easy, but anybody can do it. Recovery is very different. So the way I define that is sobriety is just the abstinence of, in this case, alcohol. Recovery is where you actually
Maureen Benkovich (29:18.522)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (29:37.528)
do the work, the mental and emotional work of looking at why you thought that drinking was going to solve the problem in the first place. And recovery is looking at what the problem is that you were trying to solve. And that is where it becomes complex for a lot of people. And it has legs and arms. And yes, I can guarantee it will have to do with your childhood, your parents, all the hard things and all the uncomfortable emotions. But the really good news is that you don't have to do it all at once.
Maureen Benkovich (29:38.586)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (29:43.194)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (29:54.864)
you
Maureen Benkovich (29:59.729)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (30:06.83)
Right, it's a process.
Andrea Owen (30:07.33)
you can baby step in. It's process and there's many wonderful people who will support you. And there's millions of us in long-term recovery that will welcome you with open arms and be very understanding. And there's no story. I heard a story about this alcoholic who did some of the grossest things you hear, especially in AA meetings. And everybody's like nodding around the table like, yep, seems reasonable. You know, it's like the lengths that people go to.
Maureen Benkovich (30:15.056)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (30:31.376)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (30:33.773)
to stay in their addiction is wild. But anyway, all that to say recovery is possible. It is not easy, but in my opinion, is 1000 % worth it.
Maureen Benkovich (30:40.26)
Yes, it's work.
And you change and you grow and you become this other person. I'm still amazed at the layers that keep unfolding for me and the new opportunities. And I'm having a podcast, I'm talking to you, Andrea Owen, on my podcast. Like, I never thought that would happen.
Andrea Owen (30:45.997)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (30:54.08)
Yeah, look at you. It's so awesome. Well, I just, I think it's such a testament to getting over that hump of fear that, and here's how I describe it for people. Like you get to a point where like both options kind of suck. You know, it's like, do I keep drinking and I know kind of where that's going to end up and it's not good? Or do I quit? And that's scary as all hell because
Maureen Benkovich (31:06.725)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (31:15.204)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (31:22.672)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (31:23.628)
I don't know what's in Pandora's box that I'm about to open sober. And so you have to get to a place where the thought of continuing to drink and not knowing where that's going to take you, but kind of knowing it's not going to be good, that fear is a little bit more than the fear of trying out sobriety and recovery. Like it's just a tiny tipping point. You just need to get to that place and that crack in the door and walk through it.
Maureen Benkovich (31:26.084)
what that looks like.
Andrea Owen (31:52.886)
And the thing is, this is one of the things I love about Alcoholics Anonymous definitely has its problems, but one of the concepts I love is that they take it one day at a time. If you are thinking about quitting drinking, don't worry about the rest of your life. Don't even worry about the rest of the month. Just don't drink tonight. Just lay your head on the pillow tonight when you go to bed having not had a single drink. And that's the goal. That's it.
Maureen Benkovich (31:57.296)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (32:07.696)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (32:15.652)
Yeah, because future forecasting or saying when clients first come to me on a discovery call, they're like, well, I can't say never. I'm like, don't, don't say never. I don't say never. I just don't say that word. You know, I'm just not drinking anymore or today. And yeah, that's really it. Take that pressure off the table. You know, I love in your book, I think this is important. You talk about the difference between comfort and numbing. And because
Andrea Owen (32:23.298)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't either.
Andrea Owen (32:29.742)
I'm such a good guy,
Andrea Owen (32:41.55)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (32:43.256)
And I want to cut us all some slack because we're very much marketed to that this is how you relax, this is sophisticated, this is the mommy wine culture, this is what we do. But when it crosses the line from comfort to numbing out, that's the big difference. Can you talk about that? You go into it in your books a lot.
Andrea Owen (33:04.596)
Yeah. So a lot of the self-care measures and the comfort measures that people use are often the things that they use to numb out. So for example, if someone can have a glass of wine at the end of the night and it kind of takes the edge off, which is a term I love to hate, and they can really call it a measure of self-care and they can take it or leave it except for some nights when it does become a numbing mechanism.
Maureen Benkovich (33:23.652)
Yeah.
Andrea Owen (33:33.132)
and they're like three or four glasses in, heavy pours, and then that becomes a habit. So for some people, it's also like scrolling through social media. It turns off the part of your brain where you have to make decisions and you have to think about the world as we are right now. And then also it can become hours and hours of just dopamine hit after dopamine hit. And so my conclusion really is what I tell people is I can't tell you where the marker or milepost is for you.
Maureen Benkovich (33:39.28)
Mm-hmm.
Right, there are other habits.
Maureen Benkovich (33:53.018)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (34:02.282)
only you know. And that comes to listening to your intuition on what is serving you and what is not, and then experimenting with it. And also, like, be kind to yourself because brain chemistry is very much a thing and dopamine helps. It is.
Maureen Benkovich (34:03.343)
Right.
Maureen Benkovich (34:09.733)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (34:19.056)
Yes, it's a reward, know, it makes us want to do the thing again. But I always tell people, I mean, I was drinking for 45 years, so don't expect that this is going to happen overnight. there again is that grace and self-compassion and curiosity and the experimental mindset. So important. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (34:35.328)
Yeah, what a miracle though, honestly, that you gave it up after a 45 year drinking career.
Maureen Benkovich (34:41.934)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it was, you know, wanting, looking at my future self, not liking what I saw, feeling so out of alignment with a health and fitness person and then living this whole other life because I was a binge drinker. I'd really binge on the weekends and I just saw that that was not going to last. And mentally, I was going down the tubes, the depression, the anxiety. And so making those connections.
Andrea Owen (34:44.321)
It is, it truly is.
Maureen Benkovich (35:06.638)
And getting really informed on like, okay, alcohol-induced depression, alcohol-induced anxiety are real things, you know? So you have to become informed.
Andrea Owen (35:11.726)
Yeah, very much. You do. And it's, think that we are, we are making some progress there. The needle is moving and, you know, people talking about how it's poison, it's a carcinogen. And none of that information was out when I got sober. And even just like the Mommy Wine Culture movement was just starting out.
Maureen Benkovich (35:21.954)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (35:27.184)
Toxin.
Maureen Benkovich (35:30.83)
Right, right.
Maureen Benkovich (35:35.322)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (35:36.852)
So for me, it really was just about my intuition. And also thankfully, my father, who passed away in 2016, got sober when I was 18 in 1993. And I saw what it meant to be a high functioning alcoholic. And even back then, I was so illiterate in terms of mental health. But it was a great example to me. And he stayed sober until the day he died. So I did see that there could be people who didn't look like a kind of
Maureen Benkovich (35:46.864)
The diff-
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (36:00.515)
Right.
Andrea Owen (36:05.144)
stereotypical alcoholic. So that was helpful too.
Maureen Benkovich (36:07.16)
Right. That's what I mostly work with that kind of person. I want to say behind all of your work and what you do, like think you're such a badass, you're all about empowering women. And I think what I've learned throughout my own experience and now coaching people is alcohol is so disempowering and we're sold this bill of goods that it's empowering, it's sex in the city, it's what sophisticated women do.
Andrea Owen (36:20.91)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (36:34.798)
and yet I think it is one of the most disempowering substances. I there are so many bad things that happen with it, especially to women. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Andrea Owen (36:41.644)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I also think that like what you're speaking to is in many ways, alcoholism for women is a feminist issue because it is something that exactly like you said, it is disempowering. It keeps us quiet. It keeps us kind of like in our lane and it prevents us from taking
Maureen Benkovich (36:53.828)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (37:07.766)
risks that matter to us. I'm not talking about situational, like on days that we're drinking. I'm thinking like overall, if someone is eyeball deep in whether you... I don't love the term alcoholic because it's a label that I think we have an image in our mind of what that looks like. Whether you are a gray area drinker or a binge drinker on the weekends, like
Maureen Benkovich (37:09.242)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (37:22.905)
Right, I don't really.
Maureen Benkovich (37:33.402)
Right. Or alcohol use disorder spectrum.
Andrea Owen (37:36.204)
Yeah, if you're in there, if you're in there at all, on any part of the spectrum, you are not living up to your best self, your future self, your best version of yourself. Yeah, and it's like, what if at the end of your life, someone came to you and was like, you know what would have made you like the best version of yourself if you had quit drinking? You know, it's like, didn't want that to happen to me. was like, my God.
Maureen Benkovich (37:45.978)
Yes. Potential.
Maureen Benkovich (37:57.723)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (38:02.766)
don't know what's on the other side, but that's scared me more than anything. And that was my intuition talking to me when I heard that message.
Maureen Benkovich (38:03.567)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Well, you also do talk about faith, a belief. You were brought up in a Christian household, so I was too. And so I really felt a sense that I wasn't living in alignment with my faith either, like that God had so much more for me and I was not experiencing it. And this was the thing that was holding me back.
Andrea Owen (38:12.067)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (38:20.674)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (38:26.6)
Yeah. And I went through like a pretty major spiritual transition where I don't, I'm no longer involved in organized religion. But the thing that has never changed for me is the concept of some kind of higher power. Now I call it, know, I might call it source, divine love. Sometimes I call it the universe. There's something out there bigger than us. And to me, it's love. Capital L, love. And it's the thing that connects us.
Maureen Benkovich (38:31.301)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (38:34.767)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (38:50.544)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Owen (38:55.334)
all and it's the energy that we are all tapped into. And alcohol muted my connection to my source. And that was one of the unintended side effects of what I wanted to do was just numb the emotions. And when you're numbing out, you're numbing everything. You're numbing your whole life. You're numbing your intuition. You're numbing your connection to whatever you consider a higher power.
Maureen Benkovich (39:03.17)
Yes.
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (39:17.198)
everything.
Andrea Owen (39:23.074)
That all goes away. That's what you're sacrificing. And I think for a lot of people when they're in that place of limbo.
It can sound and feel so scary to let go of the thing that allows them to have this veil in front of them. Because I don't know about you, but I think a lot of people listening are probably like me and they are deep feelers and they are deep thinkers and they're deeply emotional. And because of that, they found alcohol and it just mutes it a little bit. Just puts like a nice filter, you know? That's all I wanted.
Maureen Benkovich (39:37.146)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (39:45.679)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (39:58.961)
Oh, yeah, I didn't want to feel. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (40:01.336)
Just a little, just a filter, because it was so much. It was so, I felt like my emotions were like lightning cracking through me. I could not be with them at all. It was so overwhelming. And to be honest with you, they still are. Like that hasn't changed. Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (40:09.37)
Yes, love that.
Maureen Benkovich (40:14.66)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (40:18.65)
But now you learn to sit with them, the good ones, the bad ones, or I don't even want to call them bad, but uncomfortable, you know.
Andrea Owen (40:24.46)
the really uncomfortable ones. I thought they would kill me. They were so overwhelming. I was like, surely this is going to kill me. I cannot stand another minute in this. And it was really because I didn't trust myself because of my disconnection from source. I didn't believe that in my own resilience. And I was afraid to be vulnerable and reach out for help. Those were the main things that were happening that
Maureen Benkovich (40:29.7)
Right, me too.
Maureen Benkovich (40:39.706)
Yes, yes.
Maureen Benkovich (40:50.544)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Andrea Owen (40:53.646)
caused me to drink instead of take the veil off.
Maureen Benkovich (40:56.624)
Yeah, exactly. And you're so right. You cannot selectively numb. You can't just numb this little piece. Everything is going to get just dulled, a little grayer, and you start to feel less. So I think that is such an important point. I love everything that you share. Obviously, you've taken your pain and everything you've learned and you put it into all these books. I highly recommend all of them. If you want to know how to stop feeling like shit, I say start with this book. I mean, who doesn't want to feel that, right? But
Andrea Owen (41:00.652)
Mm-mm.
Andrea Owen (41:05.73)
Yeah.
Maureen Benkovich (41:25.06)
Tell me what else are you working on or what's going on with you right now? You're so busy, so I'd love to hear what you're doing.
Andrea Owen (41:31.682)
I am. I made a bit of a sprint because I have a book coming out with Sounds True in December that's called Live Like You Give a Damn. It's kind of straight up and down, personal growth, 25 chapters, similar to 52 Ways to Live a Kick-Ass Life, but on new topics. And then I am hoping to self-publish another book that's a little bit more on the spiritual side this summer. We'll see. And then next year, I'm going to finally publish my memoir that's almost done. But I always have group programs and one-on-one coaching. all on my website.
Maureen Benkovich (41:37.743)
Mmm.
Maureen Benkovich (41:45.54)
Amazing.
Maureen Benkovich (42:01.476)
Yeah, definitely check out andreaowen.com. Look into her books. Andrea, I just cannot thank you enough for coming on here and again, for really for being the catalyst for me changing my life. And I just want you to know I'm so grateful and now I do what I do because I so admired what you did and I want to help people too, just like you helped me.
Andrea Owen (42:05.294)
Thank you, dear.
Andrea Owen (42:25.218)
Thank you. I mean, it is a privilege. again, I'm humbled and so grateful that by you choosing me and me just following my intuition, asked you the questions that I did in order to get you to the conclusions that you did. And then now you're out here helping other people, other women look at their drinking a little bit more closely and really grab their life by the shoulders and live it.
Maureen Benkovich (42:37.657)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Benkovich (42:43.14)
Yes.
Maureen Benkovich (42:53.486)
Yeah. Thank you.
Andrea Owen (42:53.806)
That makes me so happy. Thank you.
Maureen Benkovich (42:59.697)
I'm gonna stop it, there you go. Thank you.
